[svn] Balancing solipsists

[supermini]

I've been messing around with solipsists both in the ID and campaign. I'll make a char report for the campaign one when it's ended, but one thing is clear - they still need tuning. Here are some suggestions.

>>Note - this is feedback from the svn version. There have been changes from b42.<<

Increase cooldown of Mind Sear to 3 (from 2)

Right now, you can get away with a very limited number of attack spells and invest most of your points in defensive abilities thanks to mind sear being spammable. It's one of your best spells, and it seems to stay that way. Increasing the cooldown to 3 would force solipsists to put their points more towards attack abilities, if they want to make use of the global speed increase.

Balance talent in Solipsism tree needs to go

While this fits thematically very well, in practice it's too powerful. If you play for boosting your high save (and you should), you essentially become almost immune to everything. I'm currently running around with 71/71/74 saves, and I'm level 40. And I'm also not a dwarf.
They already get bonuses from lucid dreamer (that scale with mindpower), and giving them this is essentially overkill.

I would completely axe this talent. One idea would be make it instead give the save bonuses that are now on Lucid Dreamer. I'll explain below what I would do with that one.

Make confusion resistance apply to sleep as well

Right now, nothing in the game resists sleep, unless through insomnia effects, or resisting all. Rather than mess around with inventing sleep resistance for each mob, confusion resistance could become confusion/sleep. It's a form of mental attack so it would fit thematically, and it is necessary because the effect is too powerful now.

I would give Lucid Dreamer the ability to ignore some of the confusion/sleep resistance of your targets (instead of the save bonuses, as mentioned before). 7/14/21/28/35% sounds ok to me, but it would need testing.

Forge armor should scale differently

Right now it gives you a lot for your first talent point, and it scales too well with mindpower. My suggestion would be to either make the bonuses completely fixed and linear (make them not scale with mindpower), or make them about 20% worse.

Psionic/Feedback could start locked

It's a very good tree, and a very interesting mechanic, but I keep thinking that it should start locked. It would make solipsists spend their precious category points on unlocking trees rather than going for infusions/runes, which both fits the theme of relying on your own mental strength and makes it a very interesting choice for the player. The tree offers a lot of utility, so I think it would be worth a cat point to unlock.

Inner Demons and Waking Nightmare

Instead of ignoring fear resistance on sleeping targets outright, the talents should give you a 20% chance/talent level to ignore fear resistance. It still keeps the tree useful for everything (well, everything that's not both confusion and fear immune if both my suggestions are accepted), but you have to invest heavily to get the most out of it.

So, what do you think?

[5k17]

Increase cooldown of Mind Sear to 3 (from 2)

I like the cooldowns the way they are now. I think investing in Mind Sear + any offensive tree should be enough for a standard Solipsist; with longer Mind Sear cooldowns, that could become somewhat problematic.

Psionic/Feedback could start locked

Since Biofeedback and Discharge are sort of codependent (either should work without the other, but Discharge is less effective without Biofeedback), it would force players who want their five inscription slots to choose between the two; as a result, both trees would need to be stronger than they are now. That would be okay in principle, but I find that for some builds, it's almost a necessity to spend two cat points on unlocking trees already. Making that three seems a bit hairy.

And to add a few thoughts and impressions of my own:
Thought-Forms are currently, like most summons, very strong in the early game and nearly useless in the late game. Since solipsists do not heavily rely on summons and don't have as many ways as summon-based classes to make them stronger, they should perhaps be rebalanced.

In principle, Solipsists have pretty good melee capabilities, with Dream Smith and Dream Forge. They just cannot make much of it; apart from those two, they have no trees that are especially useful in melee. Not unlike Summoners (although Solipsists are somewhat better than them in this regard), they have melee talents they will hardly be able to focus on, and it bugs me to see these opportunities for interesting potentially-melee classes wasted, especially because other unusual build choices (e.g. minionless Necromancer, Strengthless Wyrmic) seem to be quite doable (but still forced to waste talent points).

Solipsists seem to be specialized on defending against small amounts of damage: they have Feedback, Dismissal, Forge Shield and Forge Armor. Given their similar purposes, that does seem rather much. I am, of course, aware that few classes specialize on negating large amounts of damage, but unless Solipsists are explicitly intended to be the masters of minuscule damage blocking, some changes to Dismissal (and/or perhaps Feedback) to make it/them a little more useful against larger amounts of damage (and less useful against small) might be expedient.

[supermini]

Increase cooldown of Mind Sear to 3 (from 2)

I like the cooldowns the way they are now. I think investing in Mind Sear + any offensive tree should be enough for a standard Solipsist; with longer Mind Sear cooldowns, that could become somewhat problematic.

Only if you want to use your global speed increase to throw attacking abilities without pause, which should not be given with a single tree.

Since Biofeedback and Discharge are sort of codependent (either should work without the other, but Discharge is less effective without Biofeedback), it would force players who want their five inscription slots to choose between the two; as a result, both trees would need to be stronger than they are now. That would be okay in principle, but I find that for some builds, it's almost a necessity to spend two cat points on unlocking trees already. Making that three seems a bit hairy.

I don't have a problem with choosing between the two, or choosing to give up 5th slot or running Cornac. I don't see why 5 infusion slots have to be a given for every class and specifically, every build. There are winners with 4 slots, so it's doable with less. Solipsists seem to be a class that packs enough utility that you don't really need 5 infusion slots.

And to add a few thoughts and impressions of my own:
Thought-Forms are currently, like most summons, very strong in the early game and nearly useless in the late game. Since solipsists do not heavily rely on summons and don't have as many ways as summon-based classes to make them stronger, they should perhaps be rebalanced.

I'd say that the resistance bonus and distraction is quite useful in the later game, even if the damage potential isn't huge.

Solipsists seem to be specialized on defending against small amounts of damage: they have Feedback, Dismissal, Forge Shield and Forge Armor. Given their similar purposes, that does seem rather much. I am, of course, aware that few classes specialize on negating large amounts of damage, but unless Solipsists are explicitly intended to be the masters of minuscule damage blocking, some changes to Dismissal (and/or perhaps Feedback) to make it/them a little more useful against larger amounts of damage (and less useful against small) might be expedient.

Forge Armor does its job well, as long as you boost your armor hardiness. There are several items that boost it, you can wear heavy armor, boost armor training and wear -fatigue% items, you can get the mobility tree (you can betray escorts to zigur in the svn as long as you are eligible for AM) and wear any robe with it. Forge shield also protects specifically against large damage, and resonance field halves all incoming damage, big and small.

I'm not sure where you see the problem. I was tanking 3 naga myrmidons in the temple of creation without much of a problem. I wasn't wearing Robe of Spydre either.

[5k17]

I don't have a problem with choosing between the two, or choosing to give up 5th slot or running Cornac. I don't see why 5 infusion slots have to be a given for every class and specifically, every build. There are winners with 4 slots, so it's doable with less. Solipsists seem to be a class that packs enough utility that you don't really need 5 infusion slots.

True, but 3 inscription slots still seem a bit few. Unless Solipsists get more talents for "alternative" builds, those have little else than the locked trees to invest in.

I'd say that the resistance bonus and distraction is quite useful in the later game, even if the damage potential isn't huge.

It's less about damage potential than resilience. Once just about everything can two-hit them, I find them quite useless.

Forge Armor does its job well, as long as you boost your armor hardiness. There are several items that boost it, you can wear heavy armor, boost armor training and wear -fatigue% items, you can get the mobility tree (you can betray escorts to zigur in the svn as long as you are eligible for AM) and wear any robe with it. Forge shield also protects specifically against large damage, and resonance field halves all incoming damage, big and small.

Forge shield does not protect against large damage, it protects when you take large damage. Other than that, you're right, but still, Solipsists have no intrinsic way to boost armor hardiness. Also, I forgot that, since Solipsists have high Willpower and no spells, the Antimagic Shield is yet another Solipsist-typical way of negating small amounts of damage. There really seem to be ridiculously many of those.

[donkatsu]

Increase cooldown of Mind Sear to 3 (from 2)

I would rather Mind Sear be weaker (and other attack talents stronger), making it more of a last resort for when your other, better talents are off cooldown, rather than the almighty beam-shaped nuke that it is now. So you can still spam it, but you'd really rather invest in some better offensive talents instead.

Balance talent in Solipsism tree needs to go

Isn't the difference between 71/71/74 saves with 5/5 Balance and 71/71/74 saves without Balance just... 3/3/0 scaled, 12/12/0 unscaled? I might be missing something here. 12/12/0 saves for 5 class points does not seem terribly overpowered to me. Spell Shield is 0/40/0 for 5 class points and no one calls that overpowered.

Make confusion resistance apply to sleep as well

Please no. Nerf sleep, sure, but making yet another thing dependent on status immunities would be a step backward from all the progress that has been made in de-emphasizing stun/confuse immunities. Maybe increase Insomnia duration instead?

Thoughtforms are useful the entire game, they just change roles from tank and damage dealer to Thought-Form Unity buff provider. And even then their damage isn't bad.

[supermini]

Increase cooldown of Mind Sear to 3 (from 2)

I would rather Mind Sear be weaker (and other attack talents stronger), making it more of a last resort for when your other, better talents are off cooldown, rather than the almighty beam-shaped nuke that it is now. So you can still spam it, but you'd really rather invest in some better offensive talents instead.

That works too.

Balance talent in Solipsism tree needs to go

Isn't the difference between 71/71/74 saves with 5/5 Balance and 71/71/74 saves without Balance just... 3/3/0 scaled, 12/12/0 unscaled? I might be missing something here. 12/12/0 saves for 5 class points does not seem terribly overpowered to me. Spell Shield is 0/40/0 for 5 class points and no one calls that overpowered.

If I understand it correctly, Balance sets your physical and spell saves to 90% of your mental saves - it says 'You now substitute 90% of your mental save for your physical and spell save rolls, so at 100% you would effectively use mental save for all your saving throws'. There is no way that I would get close to 71 in the other two. We're probably talking 30/30/0 scaled.

Make confusion resistance apply to sleep as well

Please no. Nerf sleep, sure, but making yet another thing dependent on status immunities would be a step backward from all the progress that has been made in de-emphasizing stun/confuse immunities. Maybe increase Insomnia duration instead?

Fair enough, but I still think that having a button that works on almost everything is too strong. Classes that can stunlock or have strong confusion will find enemies that are immune to those effects (other than those that resist all 100%, which aren't all that common) and will have to alter their approach. You have 3 different sleep effects (well one is in a locked tree but still) that work on almost everything, all the time. You can sleep a tough enemy and run away easily, something very few classes are able to.

[supermini]

I don't have a problem with choosing between the two, or choosing to give up 5th slot or running Cornac. I don't see why 5 infusion slots have to be a given for every class and specifically, every build. There are winners with 4 slots, so it's doable with less. Solipsists seem to be a class that packs enough utility that you don't really need 5 infusion slots.

True, but 3 inscription slots still seem a bit few. Unless Solipsists get more talents for "alternative" builds, those have little else than the locked trees to invest in.

You get 4 category points. You would only be left with 3 inscriptions if you unlocked Nightmare, Discharge, Feedback and one escort tree of choice. If you're going for that kind of build, you should probably go Cornac, then you would have 4.

I'd say that the resistance bonus and distraction is quite useful in the later game, even if the damage potential isn't huge.

It's less about damage potential than resilience. Once just about everything can two-hit them, I find them quite useless.

My level 45 defender has 1400 hp and 70%/63 armor. It doesn't have any significant resistances, sure, but if he gets two shotted, that's a lot of damage that I didn't just take. Throw in some misc. summons (spiders from Egg-sac, yeek mindslayers or vampire from choker of dread) and you have a good distraction party.

Forge Armor does its job well, as long as you boost your armor hardiness. There are several items that boost it, you can wear heavy armor, boost armor training and wear -fatigue% items, you can get the mobility tree (you can betray escorts to zigur in the svn as long as you are eligible for AM) and wear any robe with it. Forge shield also protects specifically against large damage, and resonance field halves all incoming damage, big and small.

Forge shield does not protect against large damage, it protects when you take large damage. Other than that, you're right, but still, Solipsists have no intrinsic way to boost armor hardiness. Also, I forgot that, since Solipsists have high Willpower and no spells, the Antimagic Shield is yet another Solipsist-typical way of negating small amounts of damage. There really seem to be ridiculously many of those.

The best way to negate large amounts of damage is to boost your resistances to high levels. At that point, large bursts of damage become smaller amounts of damage, which solipsists are very good at defending against. You also get resistance buff from thought-form def. to help.

As for armor hardiness, if you can't find another way, do what everyone else does - get armor training and wear mail armor. Use +str items to wear it and -fatigue% items to compensate for fatigue. Bloodcaller gives you -5% fatigue and it's guaranteed. You have to take a hit to your mental save, but it's worth it because of how it scales, and it's an awesome artifact anyways. I believe one other early-ish ring (Nightsong) also gives -fatigue, and later on Glory of the Pride gives -15%. There's also the option of getting Mobility tree (what I did because I didn't want to rely on Spydre), wearing Robe of Spydre, wearing Stone Cloak.

[ohioastro]

I think that we should be careful about casually crippling class-defining abilities in the name of balance.

[SageAcrin]

I think I'd like to see how many are clearing next version, before I comment.

They went through a lot of nerfs already, and there's no real proof of actual performance yet. No rush.

[micah]

My solipsist died of boredom. I got to level 46, but I can't stand to play the character any more. The defense is pretty insane, making it a snooze (I'm sorry) to play, and the DPS, at least from the dream smith tree, is really low, so even with AoE attacks, it takes a while to clear rooms.

I agree with supermini's assessment of the class's strengths. Really key are the damage mitigation and healing talents, the saving throw thing (I tossed out my wild infusion for a movement infusion and never regretted it), and sleep. Sleep's cool down is too short. I don't think I ever found myself in a position where I thought "You know, it'd be nice if I could use sleep right now" and had it not be available.

I haven't been around ToME very long, but I've played it a fair amount and I've experienced many different classes. In comparison to some of the solipsist talents, though, other classes seem really lackluster, at least when it comes to defense. Maybe it might be a good idea to nerf their defensive talents some while boosting their damage? That would put them more in line with the other classes, most of which feel to me like glass cannons (but then again I'm not particularly experienced, so I might be playing them wrong).

Oh, I'll also throw in that you don't even have to worry about -fatigue gear since you can get a prodigy that sets it to zero. So you're free to make a plate armor solipsist (at level 40 at least).

[supermini]

I haven't been around ToME very long, but I've played it a fair amount and I've experienced many different classes. In comparison to some of the solipsist talents, though, other classes seem really lackluster, at least when it comes to defense. Maybe it might be a good idea to nerf their defensive talents some while boosting their damage? That would put them more in line with the other classes, most of which feel to me like glass cannons (but then again I'm not particularly experienced, so I might be playing them wrong).

Their offense is pretty decent. Well, the distortion and that mind attack tree anyway. They really shouldn't be like glass cannons, because, as you said, they would be to similar to other classes.

Right now, they are too good in both offense and defense. When it comes to offense, they are also quite confusing. They have a mind tree for mid range blasting, a distortion tree for some long range weak blasting and crowd control, a feedback based tree that's based on...not doing things, I suppose, and a dream hammer tree for short range stuff.

That's both confused and confusing, too many different systems for one class. It needs a decision on what it's going to be.

Oh, I'll also throw in that you don't even have to worry about -fatigue gear since you can get a prodigy that sets it to zero. So you're free to make a plate armor solipsist (at level 40 at least).

Yeah, you still pay an opportunity cost of not choosing something else...Not that there's a lot of good stuff for psionic classes yet.

[Mewtarthio]

My solipsist died of boredom. I got to level 46, but I can't stand to play the character any more. The defense is pretty insane, making it a snooze (I'm sorry) to play, and the DPS, at least from the dream smith tree, is really low, so even with AoE attacks, it takes a while to clear rooms.

Try using the Nightmare tree. The basic Nightmare can take care of the mooks, while Inner Demons turns the more powerful enemies into your own private army.

...But yeah, solipsists are basically cheat mode right now. Though I have no idea what the point of the Dream Hammer is. I want to like it, but it just doesn't measure up to the other trees.

[5k17]

Though I have no idea what the point of the Dream Hammer is. I want to like it, but it just doesn't measure up to the other trees.

It's pretty good if you're playing a melee Solipsist; those don't have too many other means of offense.

[donkatsu]

There's no advantage to a melee Solipsist though. It's not like they do more damage or have better defensive capabilities or crowd control or mobility, they just can't attack at a range. Still, I really like all the different options, and I wish all of the classes had this level of customizability. "Focusing" is boring, basically forcing you to play one way.

[micah]

I guess it just feels like with other classes, it's more of a struggle to eek out resistance points, while solipsists are just handed all these great defensive talents. And really, should solipsists be the best tanks? What about bulwarks or wyrmics? Thematically I think it would make more sense for solipsists to be best at CC while passing the title of best tank to another class.

I sort of agree with donkatsu that more options are better. The only problem is, besides the discharge tree, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between the offensive trees. They all have CC and AoE attacks, the main difference is the range. So they might not be the most exciting options.

The one advantage I can think of for a melee solipsist (assuming that means points in weapon mastery) is that you can utilize the full global speed boost without having to worry about cool downs. A sword and board solipsist might be cool. I wouldn't use dream smith, though, since it's left a sour taste in my mouth. I'd probably just focus on CC talents.