Grey wrote:What new player doesn't check out Bill?
Some people don't really cope well with permadeath in general though, which I suspect is the case here.
I have to agree with this sentiment. The first time I played ToME 4 it was as a Berserker and I, too, went into the "dangerous" area. Coincidentally, there was a patchwork troll waiting for me, too. He was the first, and only, thing I saw after moving the rock; he one-hit me for around 300 damage. I thought the patchwork troll was the boss of the zone. I gave it another shot after running through the tutorial and found Bill sans patchwork.
omni wrote:Daftigod man, why would you dare him to go into bills lair immediately after prox?
Actually, Bill is largely a pushover for a Berserker that's already handled Prox. Only extreme bad luck can hand him victory. Unless you've neglected Stunning Blow.
I suggested he go to Bill because I wasn't expecting a lvl 38 patchwork troll to show up! I'm pretty sure he would have had a fighting chance if it was just Bill and the rest of the trolls, especially since I made sure he applied his stat and talent points after killing Prox.
I'm also pretty sure that the patchwork troll is an oversight from a previous beta, and out the 100+ times I've fought Bill the patchwork has only shown up once for me. I guess my pops just has bad luck. But it was the kind of bad luck (and timing) that turned him off to the game completely. Oh well, not a biggie. I'm sure he'll get really bored some day and give it another run.
I was thinking that there could be a more casual game type (coffee break style) built in for newbies. The arena is a great introduction to the mechanics of the game, without all the time invested, and with much quicker level ups. A new player can see more of the gameplay much faster than if he went into the full out story mode. The action is contained in one screen, the worst status effects are very limited (confusion and stun are much less frequent), and there isn't alot of reading involved. This makes for a quick and compact crash course for the game. Keep in mind that most game players these days have the attention span of a rock.
Maybe the 30 wave arena mode could be unlocked by default? After beating the arena in Derth you could unlock the 60 wave mode?
Here's my own unfortunate example; I was setting up to explore a farportal for gear, when I ran into this Xaren cursed paradox mage boss on the second floor, who had a small escort of very annoying shadows that kept fading and casting spells. This boss apparently could hit like Godzilla too, and if I hadn't cranked an emergency teleport from a charm I kept handy, I'd be dead. As it was, I had to replace my golem twice during that combat (technically 4 times since I'm counting both supercharge and refit repairs from cover) and was brought down to nearly dead some four times in all during the encounter. If not for the equipment I carried, I'd have lost all my lives and this run would have come to a miserable end. The only way I was able to take him out was critting for 270-300 damage thrice in a row with channel staff, which killed him. That, and having high saves vs. mental attacks. I hated everything by the time I was done with that combat. Give me dreadmasters, dreads, headless and luminous horrors, bloated and blade horrors, Worms that Walk, even the damn dragon packs, and I can deal with them, not unbalanced combos like this. It's really hilarious when your enemy has so many more options than you do, which makes combat a war of attrition, or a foregone conclusion (i.e. you lose.) Those turn back the clocks and mind sears HURT. I also propose making resistances on gear somewhat more common to compensate for overpowered enemy attack modes. Yes, I ran into a room full of blood mages and disciples in the old crypt, which essentially means a one-shot death for anyone who blunders in unknowing. Not all classes have the luxury of arcane eye or even so much as a golem scout to send up front to see what the situation is.
I sincerely hope randelites and randbosses can get balanced in the end if possible. Or hey, if we're talking throwing the balance out entirely, let players dual class into a second, related category.
I still love the game to bits though, don't get me wrong on that, but the randelites and randbosses need a little tweaking.
Case in point: I have beaten adventuring parties before with some deadly combinations like Solipsist, Corruptor, Paradox Mage all at once, 2x Solipsist and 1x Necromancer, 2x Summoner, Necromancer, and Paradox Mage, and so forth. If I can beat these guys, I should be able to beat the randelites easy as well. I really have no problem with the way things are right now, but this needs fixing, badly.
The far portal is supposed to be unfair. Otherwise, you have an easy source of infinite experience, gear, and cash. Think of far portals like a game of roulette: they're ToME4's answer to gambling.
If you don't like that, you're probably not going to want to open the vault in the Vor Armory.
The Vor Armory vault you can plan for. Not an overpowered boss who essentially jumps out at you from left field. There's your difference. I know it's meant to be unfair, but this was the worst trouble I've had with any set of enemies not even counting the ones at the bottom of lake Nur. I've fought adventuring parties easier than this boss.
Which is kinda' why the fortress farportals are completely optional. They're a (extremely) high risk, (extremely) high reward option for people either playing on adventurer or supremely confident in their build (and in the latter case, most likely going to splat in due time), but they're pretty much guaranteed to eventually kill you, if you keep running them.
Insofar as I'm aware, that's working entirely as intended and making all dual (and sometimes tri, I believe) class randuniques beatable isn't really on the list of things to do. Farportals are supposed to eventually kill you or force you to break the portal by escaping. This is specifically to prevent someone from infinitely grinding the portals for loot. This is kinda' why there's a warning each and every time you try to go into the things.
Or, to put it another way, farportal bosses don't jump you from left field; they jump you in an area you willingly went in to. Going into the portal is exactly the same as opening the doom room door.
Single classed uniques (rares) are a different story, and they get toned back appropriately as their classes do.
As for possible changes... maybe a stronger warning on the entrance popup. Also a warning when you hit the level the farportal boss is actually on ("You feel an aura of menace" or somethin'.). At an absolute extreme end, auto-break the portal and get you out alive if something in one kills you, akin to an ambush death. The bosses themselves, though, I wouldn't recommend touching. They're pretty much exactly spot on for what they're supposed to be, imo.
In an irony, the second farportal I explored had one of the crappiest bosses I've had the fun of facing (human shadowblade cursed.) Even his loot was only any good for transmog.
Yeah, before the retools that happened when Rares were put in, it was taking your life in your hands.
Since then, though, they're reasonably safe as long as you don't do them early. An L40-50 character can farportal and can face some nasty enemies, but few things I'd consider instant death.
It's just early that it's heavily risky. Don't see a problem with that-the added loot is also worth more early, too.
(The usual "More warnings may be needed" might go here, but I didn't think the Farportal's warning was too bad on that front.)
I've gotten into DCSS a little lately (just had an interesting run with a Sludge Elf Transmuter, should have entered The Lair instead of continuing to explore that level...). It's an interesting game, and very different from ToME in many ways, but I can see why it would be brought up in discussion of out-of-depth monsters. It seems like there is always a good chance of encountering an OoD monster on any level, not to mention the many circumstances where you're stuck between a rock (orc priest) and a hard place (orc wizard). In general death seems to come knocking much more often; the saving grace usually comes from various escape- and defense-oriented consumable items. To some degree it makes me lament ToME's paradigm of no consumable items, since it would allow for the difficulty to be a bit bumpier. More utility/escape-oriented charms and inscriptions would be nice, especially if they weren't of the "random teleport, good luck!" variety.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Total: 17 offensive, 15 defensive, 16 escape/utility.
Okay, so this doesn't take into account rarities (one i'm not sure you can get), but there certainly are options.
I like this system better than consumables.
1) It is different and seems original.
2) They don't run out. (I run out of consumables in Crawl around Lair/Orcs)
Reading the offensive options make me feel like rewriting them. Lightning Bolt as a talent, rune and wand. Blech.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Yeah, the ego spread could use a little tweaking, and some of the offense runes, despite their instant casts, could stand to be a little stronger/more flexible.
Thinking on it, it's surprising offense runes don't have moderate status attached to them. Frozen Spear having a reliable Iceblock chance, or Heat Rays Flameshocking people, for three-five turns, would make them much better.
Of course, the downside is that enemies get them, so maybe not.
Stormlock wrote:ToME 4 has no qualms about making you blind, stunned and illuminated in a single turn, then having your wild infusion remove the illumination part. Never mind the joys of being confused, then frozen, then hit with impending doom. Hope you have 3 wild infusions. Even assuming it's something incredibly easy like a single stun initially, your margin for error and bad luck is often razor thin. The initial hit probably brought you to half hp or so. Your heals are on cooldown. So is your teleport. Movement is blocked or suicidal (running away in daikara for example, or anywhere with mages while at low hp.) Now you have to pop wild to cure the stun- grats, now you still have to survive one more turn to get teleport off cooldown. Hope you have a shielding rune (and a 4th slot for healing, since your 3rd is the teleport), and hope your enemy doesn't get a crit, or stun you again, or freeze you. Hopefully you've actually found the needed items- 60 point shields aren't going to cut it later on. Hopefully you weren't slowed even slightly by slime or anything of the sort, since then the enemy might get a double turn and kill you. Hopefully when you teleport you end up somewhere safe instead of on top of another rare or just anything with a burst damage ability or more status effects. Remember to check the properties of every piece of equipment you ever put on in case one is arcane disrupting and fizzles the teleport.
That, right there, is an amazingly eloquent description of how this game hands me my ass, every time.
, or is it - 1!!!