Too many elites, too deadly

[Wombat]

I like new elites a lot. They return old school roguelike sadistic "Tough luck weakling, your are dead" feel. To compensate increase in difficulty I suggest instead of nerfing them improve their drop - only purple and occasionally orange items.

I don't completely disagree with this, but they are a bit overpowered still. For example, I've found that a basic Cornac Berzerker doesn't stand much chance without some luck with weapon drops before meeting an elite, while they can usually take out Prox by the time they meet him.

What I find a bit disappointing is that they're often tougher than the boss in many intro zones, while the experience they give is a fraction of what you get from the boss.

[Grey]

I like new elites a lot. They return old school roguelike sadistic "Tough luck weakling, your are dead" feel.

Whilst that approach works well in some games, I feel it's not part of ToME's ethos and is ill-placed in the game. ToME is about fair challenge and only punishing mistakes, not arbitrary death. These elites shouldn't appear before level 5, and should be severely toned down in power at low levels.

To compensate increase in difficulty I suggest instead of nerfing them improve their drop - only purple and occasionally orange items.

True, there should be some better reward for them, since the experience gain is at the moment minimal.

[faustgeist]

I quite like the new additions, but they certainly have changed the 'feel' of the game. Making it harder and for some perhaps more frustrating. I feel this will not permit new players of roguelikes to enjoy TOME 4 as readily as past versions have.

I would suggest having options at character generation on how many elites to populate the chosen game. Not a slider bar stating exactly 1-50 random elites, but rather normal/hard/insane/ and madness modes.

Or, if this feels redundant have an on/off switch.

One of my favorite old roguelikes is Zangband, which I still play... it & many of it's offspring have vast options to choose from during character generation... from level scumming to MObs +++ Options and customizable features can only help a games longevity and re-playability.

2cents,
~Robin

[edge2054]

There's a number of changes in the SVN already but before I go into them I want to talk about loot philosophy for a second.

The new greater egos were written to be pushed into mid-late game and the new green egos were written to keep the player satisfied early game. Once the other egos are gone over the drop tables will probably be adjusted. The reason they weren't adjusted for b39/40 is because they needed to be play tested extensively to get the bugs out.

The idea isn't to punish the player but give them new stuff to look forward to all game long rather then the same set of egos over and over again.

So, that said. I do not support giving random elites a guaranteed blue or purple drop. But double green should be okay (and really once all the egos are gone over a double green should be a really nice drop early game).

Okay, now to talk about the SVN changes to quiet some fears I'm hearing in this thread. Note these changes aren't exclusive (there may be more to come).

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Currently, Random Elites are already not supposed to spawn with talents they shouldn't have access to for their level. If you see this behavior in beta 40 please take a screen shot of the monsters talent screen and post it in a bug thread. Please list the monsters level as well. For instance, a level 2 orc should not be casting quantum spike on you or using assault. If you see this, its a bug and we need to fix it.

In b41 Random Elites will no longer spawn in your character's starting zone. For instance, if you're a dwarf you won't see Random Elites in Escape from Reknor. If your an Anorithil or a Sun Paladin you won't see Random Elites in the Slazish Fens.

In b41 Random Elites that are under level 12 will have a damage penalty depending on their level. A level 5 random elite for instance will deal 20% less damage.

In b41 Random Elites that Split or Multiply will clone as the base NPC type. For instance MurderThePlayer the White Worm Mass summoner will now multiply base White Worm Masses, i.e. not elite ones.

In b41 Random Elites will no longer spawn on easy (that's easier on the selection screen) difficulty.

Additionally we have a thread started for any terrible talent combos you guys come across. If you get instagibbed by a random elite or nearly instagibbed please see this thread http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=33764 and follow the instructions. Many talents have been balanced around PC use and the rare (hand crafted) NPC. So there's going to be some balance discrepencies when they're randomly given to NPCs. Please post about them in that thread so we can get them balanced

[Hunter]

So there was an actual white worm summoner? I must have killed him without realizing, because I was thinking that those replicating elite white worm masses in Trollmire were brutal. I was lucky my low-level Reaver found a spot where I could keep them from surrounding me.

[Frumple]

Okay, so rolling in with b40 to suggest, maybe, a per-level cap (let's say two, maybe three) on number of random'd elites. I just ran into four of the buggers on trollmire two (admittedly, it was the third zone I hit, but still...), which was a little silly.

[Pyris311]

I just wish the drops would be better for these elites. Otherwise, I just (try to) run away from them because they just aren't worth it.

[jenx]

Edge, I have already mentioned that I was out into fearscape by a bear in trollmire. Was level 6

[ohioastro]

I've been doing some extensive testing, and have some more feedback on elites in the early game.

First, the second dungeon is at least as deadly as the first: e.g. the elites are a real issue below level 10, not just below level 5. Unless you want to drive new players away from the game, and frustrate people trying new classes, I'd strongly recommend simply omitting them completely in the pair of starter dungeons and setting a strict limit of one per level in the "non-native" starters. I lost lives on 5 dwarf cursed in a row in the Deep Bellows, and in three cases these were such severe monster swarms that it was impossible to recover (in two cases I had a swarm waiting on the entry stairs). I had 2 yeek summoners who had to restart when an elite ritch blocked the entrance in the ritch tunnels.

The game already has mechanics, such as vaults, to let people know when they are taking on extra risks. You may want to consider gating these mobs in a similar way, which gives people who want the challenge / loot. It doesn't make a lot of design sense to add such a severe and harsh penalty, especially to new players.

Other comments:

The physical layout of the dungeons involves long entry tunnels, and if you don't have teleport or phase door options you can simply be completely blocked by an unbeatable foe.

The most deadly monsters are:

1) Ones that were already strong in the base case, such as the ritch warrior classes;
2) Summoners;
3) Breeders.

The game frequently drops multiple elites together - in the Deep Bellows cases above, my cursed had absolutely no chance against 3 elite mobs at the same time.

At higher levels the more challenging bosses can be made far more difficult if they show up with multiple elites.

[Nori]

I love the idea of the elites. But I have to agree that they are much too hard before level 10. I've lost many characters over the last few days to elite orcs, trolls, snakes etc... I really like having the elites, but at these early levels my characters are just not flexible or powerful enough. So maybe just prevent them from spawning in starting dungeons?

[Strongpoint]

In b41 Random Elites will no longer spawn in your character's starting zone. For instance, if you're a dwarf you won't see Random Elites in Escape from Reknor. If your an Anorithil or a Sun Paladin you won't see Random Elites in the Slazish Fens.

[Grey]

SVN has a few other nerfs to them which should make B41 less dangerous.

[ohioastro]

In b41 Random Elites will no longer spawn in your character's starting zone. For instance, if you're a dwarf you won't see Random Elites in Escape from Reknor. If your an Anorithil or a Sun Paladin you won't see Random Elites in the Slazish Fens.

That's why I was bringing up the second starter zone as well; they're also rough on level 6-10 toons. I read the message as implying that the elites will only be absent from the very first one.

[edge2054]

Yeah, only absent from the very first dungeon as far as I understand it.

Realize that part of the reason rand elites were introduced was to spice up the early game. They need to be balanced for the early game, not omitted from it. Also realize that they'll be running with nerfed damage in what ever second dungeon you do and that hopefully by b41 the bug that's letting them spawn with higher level talents (Quantum Spike, Assault on a monster lower level then 12 for instance) will be fixed. I realize that the current incarnation of these monsters in b40 has made the game frustrating in spots but I also believe that they can add to the early game grind once they've been properly balanced.

[SageAcrin]

Also, it's good to note that some classes may have inordinately challenging earlygames due to the new Rares, but that this can be attacked from the other end, and the class its self can simply be given better early game options.

The balancing may not be quite done yet, after b41, but what's in trunk sounds like a very good start to me, at the very least.