Assertion of b38 status

[PeterW]

One MAJOR problem.

I can get through to the end game with a very powerful character without too many problems. (Dwarf Berserker) - even with that class, the Master below level 25 is really dicey, and the east below L 30 also tends to be a quick death if I can't dodge a war party.

Now - admitted - I've played this class a lot, so I know the good options, but most other classes I played can't get beyond Level 20-25.

One of two problems:

1) Simply not enough killing power to take out bosses.
2) The ones with a high XP penalty simply can't get enough XP to get powerful enough to get past the Master

Mostly, a combination of the above. If you are weak, you can't take on some of the dungeons because the normal monsters have too good a chance of offing you in one round so you can't build up enough XP to get powerful enough to get further ....

My suggestion would be more sources of XP in the west so that even the weak classes have somewhere to scum for enough XP to progress through the game further.

I realize that as you play a class, you do learn the better choices levelling - but - even trying several times - the same problem. Not saying it's impossible, and yes, it's supposed to be a hard game - but it'll be very discouraging to new players if it stays like this.

I've also noticed that the odds of getting dungeons have vastly reduced in the early game recently - not sure if that's random or not, but those certainly add excitement, equipment and XP - again things that the weaker builds need badly.

Pete

[jenx]

I've also noticed that the odds of getting dungeons have vastly reduced in the early game recently

Did you mean the odds of getting vaults? I noticed this too, but thought it was just my bad luck. Has the code changed?

[PeterW]

Sorry, yes vaults.


Pete

[PowerWyrm]

I'm completely satisfied with b38, except the couple cosmetic bugs remaining. I'd say stop adding new content to avoid introducing more bugs, fix the remaining stuff and it should be a good candidate for a 1.0.0 release.

[Grey]

1) Simply not enough killing power to take out bosses.
2) The ones with a high XP penalty simply can't get enough XP to get powerful enough to get past the Master

And yet we have winners for all classes? Some r/c combinations will be tough, but that's inevitable, and desirable even. I personally don't think any of the set boss fights are unfair, and there certainly isn't a need for more xp in the game. There used to be a lot less and people still got through fine. If the game is too easy then people won't replay it. It needs fair challenge, and I think for the most part it has that. Early game is too easy though (or more concisely, there is too much easy - I understand wanting the first couple of dungeons to not be merciless, but 6 easy dungeons is overkill), and the only unfair challenges are the random bosses.

[gimli]

I don't know...the game is awesome, but it's just too "linear" or something, there isn't enough randomness. See my thread on-topic: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=33295

Anyway I know that the game world won't be randomly generated for 1.0 but at least add more randomized dungeons with random creatures, random overland encounters etc. So that the gameplay won't be "mostly" the same after the 1st, 2nd playthrough.

[PeterW]

1) Simply not enough killing power to take out bosses.
2) The ones with a high XP penalty simply can't get enough XP to get powerful enough to get past the Master

And yet we have winners for all classes? Some r/c combinations will be tough, but that's inevitable, and desirable even. I personally don't think any of the set boss fights are unfair, and there certainly isn't a need for more xp in the game. There used to be a lot less and people still got through fine. If the game is too easy then people won't replay it. It needs fair challenge, and I think for the most part it has that. Early game is too easy though (or more concisely, there is too much easy - I understand wanting the first couple of dungeons to not be merciless, but 6 easy dungeons is overkill), and the only unfair challenges are the random bosses.

The important question is: Do you have winners in all classes with B38 ?.

The balance shifts quite a lot even with minor developer changes. I suspect you'll find blanks in the list of winners even going back over the last couple of builds.

The really unfair challenges are farportal - I've been hit by bosses that attack instantly and do one round kills taking thousands of HP - multiple times . Which makes farportal exploration for XP a no-no if you want to actually finish the game.

Pete

[Charlatan73]

All in all I think we're close to 1.0
While I think there are some point on class imbalances above, I am wondering if expecting race / class combos to be evenly balanced across everything is the wrong way to go. I agree some combos are overpowered, but I personally like to alternate between easier combos and harder ones in the game, frankly it's fun. Unless something is just plain broken I would say leave classes / races as they are.

One thing I think that should be looked at is the store re-stocking. I know that many players including myself manage store inventories by timing our first visit to a particular store. I know a lot of ideas have been presented in the past, personally I like the auto restock every 5 or 10 levels. It's not overly complicated, it's predictable, and it's something to look forward to.

[PeterW]

I wasn't complaining about imbalance, I don't object to having to play a character to L40 to be able to take down the Master if that's what's necessary. What I am complaining about is there is simply not being able to get enough XP to get to a level where you can take down the Master with some combos.

If it's a weak class/race combo. there simply aren't enough dungeons where you have some chance to accumulate XP to level without instant kills of your character.

Having the dungeons regen. after X player turns would at least would solve that. A bit more boring, but you knew that risk when you selected something less than optimal.

Pete

[Grey]

Scumming doesn't really work - monsters scale with your level to a certain degree, and some enemies are actually better to take at low levels.

Level scumming was deliberately removed from the game. There used to be regenerating enemies and items. It's generally considered a good thing that they were removed.

[Mithril]

So how would 1.0 be different from a new beta release? I guess the main difference is that the game will be made available from many new sources such as general downloading sites. So hopefully man new players who maybe have not played roguelikes before. Some thoughs:

1. No "lifetime" donation effects. Should be limited by time or version number. When one can buy a program and all future updates for a one time price, then one can be sure that the developer will soon lose financial interest in futures updates.

2. The later part of the game, say after Dreadfell, are not important for most new players. Concentration should thus primarily be on improving the early game.

3. New tutorials and possibly a hints mode are needed. For example, many new players may never realize that auto-explore exists or that it is possible to automatize talents like stealth.

4. Some may feel overwhelmed by number of choices in character creation. Possibly there could be some pre-made characters for those wishing to just start exploring.

5. Some ares like the Scintillating Cave and combination classes like Arcane Blades are not good for beginners and should likely be restricted be means such as unlocking.

6. Non-combat tedium should be further restricted. Like by doing something regarding the pointless auto-explore breaking traps and maybe making the TG chest available earlier which is important for new players.

7. The "Level scaling racials" add-on makes trying out new class/race combinations and thus replaying the game much more interesting which may reduce the irritation from frequent deaths for new players.

[peacedog]

Level scumming was deliberately removed from the game. There used to be regenerating enemies and items. It's generally considered a good thing that they were removed.

I remember when various *bands all started adding anti-scumming options about a million years ago (back when ToME was Pernband, heh). I Recall the vast majority of players of this or that flavor cheering this. At least on Usenet (ok, am I done - myself yet?), and a couple of other places around the net.

1. No "lifetime" donation effects. Should be limited by time or version number. When one can buy a program and all future updates for a one time price, then one can be sure that the developer will soon lose financial interest in futures updates.

Actually, one can not be sure of that at all. See any number of released computer games that got terrific post-release support. For years. One of the best examples, and a recent one, was Terraria, which got over an expansion pack's worth of content after release. Easily.

Financial incentive to improve still exists because there's always new people who might donate. But there are other reasons to improve a product. I can't judge how much of a factor they are here. Outside of the fact that Darkgod has been developing ToME since 1492 or therebouts (aside: Darkgod worked on Pernband, yes?).

[BasiC]

This game is pretty straightforward and the tooltip system is extensive.
What the game needs is more bugfixing (thats always true about any game XD) and needs to liven up and add randomness perticularly to cities and early game that gets played tons, especially by new players...

Another way to appeal to modern crowds is to add a multiplayer? like an arena more maybe?

[gimli]

Another way to appeal to modern crowds is to add a multiplayer? like an arena more maybe?

Wow, this is a great idea actually. It should be based on char lvl too, so max lvl chars shouldn't be placed against low lvl chars, also an online ladder should be added as well! I absolutely love this idea.

[Postman]

IMO with current beta policy any number of beta will not make release closer. The main distinguishing feature of release is gameplay balance. With current policy drastic balance changes are introduced every second beta. So before most of problems with previous balance are recognized the balance completely changed again. All the accumulation of knowledge about balance problems have to be started from scratch. The balance is "tightly coupled" - it can not be factorized into independent parts, so big changes in *some* part of game mechanics change the balance of *all* the game. Either balance should be frozen - no sharp changes, only fine tuning - or it should be acknowledged that game is in perpetual beta.
Just my .2 gold