1.7 Beta 4 Skeletons versus Ghouls and other Necro minions

[Delmuir]

So, with the replacement of Bone Wall with Shattered Remains and with both categories working, we now have a solid capacity to compare the two categories. First, a general look at both categories:

1. Skeletons...

They are remarkably effective offensively and pretty sturdy. With Shattered Remains (every time a skeleton dies, it causes bleeding damage in a radius but also adds life, armor, and significant retaliation damage in melee to your nearby skellies or Bone Giant for 20 turns), they've only grown more so. These things are surely the bane of melee combatants everywhere.

Lord of Skulls acts as a full heal, added life, and then grants a high damage skill or prodigy. The addition of "You shall be my weapon" to LoS makes the Bone Giant much more appealing (also, it doesn't count against your skeleton count so it's worth having one just in general).

The category now feels complete and it can be absolutely savage.

2. Ghouls...

Mediocre, though not terrible, offensively but their primary value is in their disposal. First off, the free ghoul upon entering combat is immediately helpful even if only to offer a secondary target. However, what it allows you to do is sacrifice it for a Putrescent Liquefaction (PL). Follow that up with summoning more ghouls and then casting Undead Explosion and you've got a heck of an offensive combo. Each ghoul that dies spreads disease (pairs well with Rigor Mortis) and increases PL's duration. With proper investment, you can almost always have ghouls by your side in combat. Discarded Refuse is a bit clumsy but it works well in avoiding but also clearing status effects.

Ultimately, I think ghouls might be the the best overall category in the entire game. It has offense, defense, is mostly cheap and largely easy to use. It's flexible and you can invest talent points in any conceivable way you want. There's no all or nothing talents (the capstone is just 1 point because extra points don't do anything at all but that may change). You can add 1-5 to any or all of the first three skills. Finally, it's fun.

For most builds, there's no need to have both categories, though you might throw a couple of points into skellies even if you're running ghouls. So which one to use? Well...

Skeletons, in my opinion, pair best with cold, i.e., the Grave category and Rimewraith whereas Ghouls are best with Age of Dusk and Nightfall. The downside of Skeletons is that it really needs Master Necromancer and once you take that category, you'll start to get stretched a little thin on talent points so the Adept prodigy becomes almost a must. Master Necromancer doesn't seem an exciting category but the Necrotic Aura makes your minions notably more resilient (if you have good resistances and you will definitely have high saves) and even more destructive. Surge of Undeath is a cheap, solid heal plus a little boost, and Suffer for Me really helps mitigate burst damage. The real winner is... surprisingly enough Recall Minions which doesn't just teleport them back to you, it always displaces any enemy near you. This is an incredible defensive resource and is not to be underestimated. In particular, if you build zig-zag tunnels, this talent can be incredible (pair it with a Dread and Neverending Peril). Suffer for me is better on ghouls than skeletons because they're disposable anyway but the Master Necromancer category is most likely not worth taking if you're playing with ghouls.

All in all, skeletons require more of an investment but the result is very good.

Ghouls, on the other hand, require a minimal investment. No extra category or prodigy (though Adept is still excellent). The entire category can be dynamite with as few as six points invest in total. A further advantage is that ghouls will use vomit and it stacks, so your healing (once they acquire it) will be outstanding and it'll chip away at enemies quite reliably. The downside is that they're temporary and so if you're in a long, tough fight, you might find yourself alone for big chunks of it.

Both ghouls and skellies add the occasional status effect and so either works well with Rigor Mortis. They each also gain free bonus minions but the skeleton bonus minions are vastly superior (archers and mages). It ultimately comes down to cost and management. Skeletons require some management but they can tear down bosses all by themselves (I've seen take down Celia without me doing anything), something ghouls will never do. However, ghouls are easier, cheaper, and PL plus Undead Explosion is brutal, particularly against mobs. Pesky enemies like Oozemancer rares aren't nearly the problem they once were.


Then we have the Rimewraith... this pairs well with skeletons because you're probably going to need the Adept prodigy in order to save points. With it though, this category comes into its own. It jumps every turn, which both buffs your minions and tears down enemies, including doing some decent, though awkward to target damage. It piles up though...

The fact that it converts all incoming damage to cold and adds resistance makes your minions (best with skeletons) even more durable. The mechanics seem odd but they work out as against a boss, it'll primarily jump into your minions, buffing them, but in a crowd, it'll go back and forth, causing a shocking amount of damage.


And then there's the Dread... this minion is a little costly and feels like a talent sink. With Ghouls, it needs minimal investment (as few as six total points in the entire category). With Skeletons though, it really shines, assuming you got Master Necromancer. Invest in Neverending Peril to make an indestructible Dread and then recall him, thus putting him between you and the enemy. The dread doesn't do any notable damage but it absolutely spams status effects. You can do this with Recall Minions by moving around but it's a little less reliable. The downside is that it likes to wander off and pick fights on its own...

The overall effect of this is that if you want to use skeletons, I suggest going Higher (to manage those resources) and making sure to pick up the Dread or Rimewraith and Master Necromancer plus the Adept prodigy. With ghouls, do whatever you want...

EDIT:

Since the change to Surge of Undeath, Ghouls are even better. It now increases the duration of the Putrescence and Undead Explosion AND reduces the time until the next free ghoul. This can result in you having your Putrescence up and running for 25 turns or so and longer as you get more free ghouls. The damage output can be excellent even at the highest of difficulty levels.

Master Necromancer is now a solid choice of category with both Ghouls and Skeletons. With ghouls you focus on the 2nd and 4th skills and with skeletons, the 1st and 3rd. It's a well-balanced and very powerful category.

All in all, it's a tough call between ghouls and skeletons, which is a great problem to have.

[mar3usmc]

I think I can agree with all that is said here.

I have been playing more with skeletons (putting 4 points in, putting up some skeletons, and then taking the points right back out) (I know it is cheesy, but playing on insane now with a Yeek Necro, and I need every advantage I can get), and I will agree that they can put out some decent burst damage early on. I feel like they fall off later in the game though, and need, as you pointed out, the bonuses from the Master Necromancer category in order to be fully utilized.

Regardless of the build, I feel like Adept is just mandatory for this class. You will always be starved for class points whether you emphasize nuking, minions, a bit of both, etc.... There are just too many things that are great, and Adept allows you to fully utilize many of them. I can't see any other prodigy besides Lichform that holds a flame to Adept due to some of the passives and sustains you can get that just are overpowered by Adept with as little as one point of investment.

I agree that Discarded Refuse is VERY clumsy. It can be great, but I think it would be better implemented as an always sustain, or passive. Additionally, I would rather that the ghoul not simply die, but explode with the same damage as Corpse Explosion and spread the effect that it took from you to enemies instead of a disease. That would give it far more flavor, and be far more fun to use.

BTW, Yeek Necromancer has been pretty fun thus far. I see Across the Veil bursting far more often due to his low base health, but the extra 1.5 turns you get from Quickened has great synergy. You also get two racial abilities that take 0 turns to use. The passive also has great synergy with Golden Age of Necromancy. You can get 100% Confusion Resist with ease, and the silence resist is excellent.

I have still not gotten to a point that I can determine whether or not Quickened will use up your Golden Age of Necromancy Invulnerable turn. If not, that is even more synergy.

[mar3usmc]

Another thing I want to point out that I would like to see improved.

Minion Targeting: Having to right click individual minions to set their target is tedious and boring. A free ability in the abilities menu that you can hot key that would set all your minions to a specific target would be a GREAT and MASSIVE QoL improvement, saving us players, some with limited time (Dad), a great deal of time.

On that note, I want to point out a method I have been using lately that I think has been great. Using track, and then setting your minion to target(s). You can stay and safe distance away and let them do all the work. Working OK so far, but soooo tedious. The things Insane difficulty makes me do is.... driving me INSANE. LOL

[mar3usmc]

On the Rime Wraith, I haven't used it, but it sounds like that the damage done means the damage you or the minion deals is converted to 100% cold, not the damage you receive. I could be mistaken, but that is how I read it. Definitely a must for a cold focused Necro anyhow, but you really can't avoid doing cold damage with all the frost dusk damage you do. It is a bit annoying having to focus on split damage between two elements, but that is how it is.

[Delmuir]

You're absolutely right about the Rimewraith... it's outgoing damage not incoming. Still, it does surprising damage and really stacks.

As Adept... I think Adept might be straight overpowered. Maybe if it gave 1 instead of 2, it might be more reasonable though I'm not sure.

That method of track and target seems tedious... also, a yeek? Ha ha, nice. That's a pretty good idea. I hope it works out.

As for Discarded Refuse, I agree. I think that added points into the talent should cause the ghouls that die to explode BUT only if Corpse Explosion is active.

[mar3usmc]

Adept: I was thinking about the 1 extra level vs 2 also today. I think you really have to think about it with regards to ALL classes, which most don't have nearly as many skills to spend on as the Necromancer does. It just really fits well with the Necromancer, perhaps too well. That said, if it were only 1 point, then I feel like it isn't worth taking. As I said, mixed feelings on it.

It is a prodigy, so it is suppose to be game changing. It wouldn't be very game changing for all classes, but shines on classes that have a great deal of categories to chose from. As for using it with the Necromancer, I just don't see any other prodigies that REALLY shine with the Necromancer except blighted minions, and I don't find that very impressive. I made a post on the steam forums about the various possible prodigies for this new necromancer here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/259680/d ... 584795787/

Track and Micro Targeting: It is VERY tedious... and sometimes I have been lazy about it, but it is very effective such that I am not the primary target for at least a few turns.

Yeek Necromancer: So far, no deaths (Besides turning into a Lich, it took forever to kill myself -_-), and only one close call while saving Melinda.

Discarded Refuse: Nice idea, building ghouls around that explosion is great. Actually, I wish that was the second ability, and the cloud would be the third, which allows you to recover souls from exploding ghouls. Yes, I think playing on blowing up the ghouls is great. That said, I would rather the discarded refuse be stand alone, and not require Corpse Explosion be active as I want that explosion to be different, instead spreading the status effect you gave to the ghoul. Still, it isn't a bad idea, and would mix well with the category. Yes, I most definitely think that explosion should be second, and the cloud third.

[darkgod]

Hum .. but discarded refuse does *kill* the ghoul which means it already interacts with CE; all my tests show the ghoul exploding (remember though CE only explodes one per turn).
I've changed discarded refuse btw, perma sustain and the number of affected debuffs per turn scales with TL

[Delmuir]

How exciting!

I'm confused about the interaction...

If DR is triggered while CE and PL are running, given that the CE only works once a turn, what happens? Does it just extend the duration of CE one turn or does it override? That's what I'm unclear on? No answer really necessary as I'm sure I can figure it out on the next Ghouly necro I run.

Thanks!