Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

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grmblfzzz
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Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#1 Post by grmblfzzz »

This post is to discuss the remaining incredibly abusive strategies that currently exist, with an eye to hopefully getting them fixed. I've made a similar post, but it was tacked onto an old/dying thread where it wasn't appropriate, so decided to try to start a fresh one here.

Basically, 1.05 removes the majority of highly ab-usable things (tentacle range, spider/crystal farming, mucus through walls, etc), but I figure that it'd be desirable to make a clean sweep of all of them. Here's a rundown of all the really game-breaking things that I can think of that are left. Most are obvious bugs, some are just tedious yet broken ala swift hands, all of them are horrifically abusable. These are the type of things that completely sidestep difficulty, and are in general just bad for the game. Feel free to bring up any that I've missed, as I'm sure there's all sorts of other shenanigans particularly with the classes I don't play much.

General Game-Breaking Exploits

1) Persistent effect stair cheesing. The old change where enemies heal up and whatnot fixed most of it, but there is still quite a bit of stair abuse possible. Mostly it's persistent effects such as Gravity well, Maelstrom, Earthquake, Traps, etc. These don't disappear when you go up stairs and rest, so you can just keep going down and throwing one, go up, repeat. You can just layer an absurd amount of stuff like that, which is pretty abusive.

Solution: Already fixed by Hachem_Muche with a patch found here http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=38467, all that needs to be done is integrating it into vanilla.

2) Horrible AI pathing that's ab-usable, described in the AI discussion thread.

Solution: Have I mentioned that Hachem_Muche is badass? Because he also already made a fix found here http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/npc-ta ... provements that I've been playtesting for a while, and it certainly mitigates or solves the issue. Again, just needs to be integrated into vanilla.

Class Specific Game-Breaking Exploits

1) Paradox mage temporal clone has infinite range/goes through walls, similar to how tentacle was.

Recommendation:
Same as with all similar things, just make it obey range/LOS.

2) Gravity trap damages/sucks people in through 1-thick walls (via being placed ON the wall). This is insanely broken, if anyone disputes that I can post vids/scrnshots to demonstrate.

Recommendation: Either make it so that all traps can't be placed inside walls, or just make gravity trap not do anything if it is in a wall.

3) Ambuscade is probably the single most abusive class specific talent remaining. Particularly with the horrible AI pathing as it stands (please implement Hackem's fix!), you are literally in no danger at any point 99% of the game. You just dig tunnels (which nothing can ever path to you from, as mentioned) and clear the entire level and all vaults without being in any risk. Teleport was disallowed from Ambuscade because it was so abusable, yet that wasn't the real issue. As it stands now Ambuscade is exactly as imbalanced as it was with teleport, just in a slightly more tedius/tactical fashion.

Recommendation: The vault issue is of much less importance than the general problem, because they're such a small part of the game. Still, I recommend making Shadowstep respect vault walls. More importantly, a simple and clean solution is to disallow Shadowstep (and probably probability travel) for Ambuscades. The ability would still be plenty usable, and that would remove almost all of the abuse potential.

4) Wraithform once you get a belt of unlife/corpslight/are-already-undead is on a similar tier of imbalance. It allows you to rest in perfect safety on the huge majority of levels, and allows you to pop out and snipe anything with pretty much 0 risk. Nor would just lowering the damage as SageAcrin recommended work as all that would do would be to make it take 1 or 2 spells more to snipe things and be perfectly safe (also, domination hexing one of a group of mobs doesn't even depend on your dmg).

Recommendation: There are a couple possible solutions that I could see working: Stitions solution, that being in a wall when it ends does damage (as you are presumably being crushed, and not needing to breath wouldn't really help you). That way, it can still be used for positioning/escape, without being ultra-abusive.

On the other hand, you could maintain it's defensive/cowardly properties while removing the imbalance by disallowing spell casting while you have wraithform up. That way you couldn't pop out/back during one cast of it (and do anything), although you could still try to abuse it but would have to use a turn to cast it and go hiding again. Overall though, I think Stitions solution is the most elegant, and most likely to solve the issues once and for all.

Miscelaneous Exploits That Are Problems, But Not of the Game-Breaking Tier

1) Drowning Uniques for XP/Items (mentioned by loimprevisto).

Recommendation: Make drowning people angry with you, at least if you've shoved them there? That wouldn't require any overall mechanics change, and would still allow you to be a risky psychopath and fight townsfolk if you so choose.

2) Infinite Trees
(and probably yeek summons too), which I just remembered. If you summon Trees as a Thalore with only 1 square in LOS via some digging, then it only summons 1 tree and doesn't take the cooldown.

Recommendation: Seems straitforward to fix whatever trigger happens when they summon and the cooldown starts to go off if any summons occur, not both.

3) Aether Beam goes through 1-thick walls (mentioned by Doctornull). Pretty sure nothing offensive is supposed to go through walls. Much less of an issue than, say, Gravity Trap however, as GT also stunlocks them next to the wall so there is never any risk of retaliation.

Recommendation: See all wall/LOS based bugs :)
Last edited by grmblfzzz on Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

Doctornull
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#2 Post by Doctornull »

grmblfzzz wrote:4) Wraithform once you get a belt of unlife/corpslight/are-already-undead is on a similar tier of imbalance. It allows you to rest in perfect safety on the huge majority of levels, and allows you to pop out and snipe anything with pretty much 0 risk. Nor would just lowering the damage as SageAcrin recommended work as all that would do would be to make it take 1 or 2 spells more to snipe things and be perfectly safe (also, domination hexing one of a group of mobs doesn't even depend on your dmg).

Recommendation: There are a couple possible solutions that I could see working: Stitions solution, that being in a wall when it ends does damage (as you are presumably being crushed, and not needing to breath wouldn't really help you). That way, it can still be used for positioning/escape, without being ultra-abusive.

On the other hand, you could maintain it's defensive/cowardly properties while removing the imbalance by disallowing spell casting while you have wraithform up. That way you couldn't pop out/back during one cast of it (and do anything), although you could still try to abuse it but would have to use a turn to cast it and go hiding again. Overall though, I think Stitions solution is the most elegant, and most likely to solve the issues once and for all.
What if you (and all NPCs) were only allowed to go 1-deep into a wall? So you could use it to snipe through thin walls, but you couldn't ever get total cover. This would also work around the AI pathing issue when an NPC who traverses walls is pushed deep to where he can't see anyone.
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PowerWyrm
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#3 Post by PowerWyrm »

Concerning Wraithform, just apply what was done in TomeNET:

- drain 1 hp per turn while wraithed in unpassable terrain
- halve any damage dealt while wraithed

Hachem_Muche
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#4 Post by Hachem_Muche »

There is a short discussion about how to fix Ambuscade at http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=38647

As for wraithform, a small health drain by itself would not be enough. A better idea would be to disable all healing and regeneration while the spell is active. This could create an issue with NPC's getting themselves killed, however.
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loimprevisto
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#5 Post by loimprevisto »

What about drowning uniquie citizens for XP and items? Is that not considered an exploit or abusive bug?

grmblfzzz
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#6 Post by grmblfzzz »

As Hackem_Muche said, health drain definitely wouldn't fix the problem, unless it was something massive or percent based (5-10%?). Otherwise all that would happen would be that you'd have to put on a health regen/heal mod item or two. You can pretty easily get probably like 20hp per turn using some fairly common items that way.

@loimprevisto: Sure, I'll add that to the list, as it's certainly abusive and as mentioned my list was by no means exhaustive. However, I'll also mention that I don't think it's approaching the same tier of imbalance. You get a single shot xp/item boost by drowning random uniques and such... but Ambuscade/Grav trap/wraithform/shitty pathing, these things you just abuse all through the game right up to the last bosses, just trivializing almost everything. I think I'll add a separate list for this type of problem, things that aren't intended/should be fixed, but aren't on the same tier of abusiveness.

SageAcrin
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#7 Post by SageAcrin »

I suspect the random townspeople you can kill for Rares is bug-into-feature to DarkGod; He knows about it, never objected that I can see, and basically uses the logic that it's morally horrible.

Which is, admittedly, amusing. Shades of Angband, where stabbing a harmless Farmer to death slowly was a great way to get a leg up in the early game.

Wraithform...I think it might be simplest to just disable talents while in a wall, with it on. Have a temporary timed effect prevent any talents(including basic attacks? Wouldn't matter much though). It's also the one that weakens it the least as an escape.

Ambuscade...I think there were a lot of good ideas in that thread, and I discussed my thoughts pretty well there, I think.

Gravity Trap/Paradox Clone are obvious bugs to fix.

(I'm not entirely sure why I addressed these in reverse order. :) )

Doctornull
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#8 Post by Doctornull »

What about Aether Beam? That also goes through 1-thick walls, and combined with Arcane Eye it can target foes who can't path to you.

I've used that tactic to kill an otherwise impossible boss.

Is that tactic abusive, or just good use of tools?
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Crim, The Red Thunder
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#9 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

A lot of those would resolve themselves, when the pathing issues get solved. I'm pretty sure when an enemy starts taking hits, they'll look for what's hitting them, and find you, once pathing gets fixed.

Worry about that if it still works after pathing gets fixed, premature until then.
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grmblfzzz
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#10 Post by grmblfzzz »

I wasn't aware that Aether Beam went through walls, I'll add that. While less abusable than some, especially if pathing is fixed, I'm pretty sure that no offensive spell is meant to go through walls, it just seems to be a persistent issue with finding all the things that do so.

@Crim, The Red Thunder, I'm pretty sure that you're severely understating the issue with this:
A lot of those would resolve themselves, when the pathing issues get solved...
Don't get me wrong, the horrible pathing in itself is a huge issue, and just makes the enemy AI much crappier than it should be, and easy to abuse in general. In fact, the pathing issue alone trivializes most encounters if you really bother to be tactical. However, while it should certainly be fixed (Hurray for Hackem_Muche! Again a plea to implement into vanilla!), it will mitigate but definitely not solve these truly Game-Breaking issues. For example:

Gravity trap through walls: Pathing changes won't help, because the nature of gravity trap is that it sucks people in. So even if they would try to perfectly b-line towards you, they are perpetually stun-locked to death next to the walls.

Persistant effect stair cheese (Again, props to Hackem for already making a fix): Once again, this applies to things that are already in a small area and even perfect pathing wouldn't stop layering 15+ earthquakes from destroying everything.

Wraithform: Still permanently invincible to non-wall-walkers.

Temporal Clone: They're forced to attack the clones anyway, plus them being arbitrarily far away and not even in aggro range.

Lastly, Ambuscade: Solving pathing alone would mitigate the imbalance as you wouldn't be 100% safe in a little wall cubby, but you would still be able to abuse with around 95-99% safety by just making sufficiently long and torturous paths that allow you to get several ambuscades off and give you ample time to escape and start the process over again.

Crim, The Red Thunder
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#11 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

I meant wall abuse methods, actually. Almost all of those would be solved by fixing pathing. But you have a point about the gravity sucking things back in. (One can also target doors with a variety of spells, spawning effects on the other side. Aether breach in particular was good at this.)
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Doctornull
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#12 Post by Doctornull »

grmblfzzz wrote:I wasn't aware that Aether Beam went through walls, I'll add that. While less abusable than some, especially if pathing is fixed, I'm pretty sure that no offensive spell is meant to go through walls, it just seems to be a persistent issue with finding all the things that do so.
Yeah in this case the abuse is only possible due to bad mob pathing, Crim is absolutely right that fixing pathing would retain the utility while removing the abuse potential.

I'm not sure it's intentional or not -- Aether Beam is just so darn fragile when you put it on the open floor. IMHO making the beam source not removable like a trap would go a long way to removing the impetus for sticking the beam in a wall in the first place.
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Sianist
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#13 Post by Sianist »

Stairs + Time Skip stops monster from healing while you're off the level ... can be quite abuseable as well

Hachem_Muche
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#14 Post by Hachem_Muche »

@grmblfzzz thanks for your votes of confidence!

As for fixing traps, I think it should be pretty easy to make trap placement put the trap one short of a blocking obstacle (between the obstacle and the player) during targeting. Would that work for all of the abusive cases? Are there any situations where this would make a talent unusable?

Nerfing stair scumming further is pretty easy. It's just a question of how far to go. If warranted, there's no reason NPCs can't be completely reset when entering the level: getting full health, resources, removing all temporary effects, resetting talent cooldowns, etc.

Drowning NPC's in town is a bit trickier.

It's not too bad for significant NPCs (rares/bosses) which use the tactical AI: Add "breath" to the want table, so that when the NPC starts suffocating it will seek out a tile where it can breathe if possible.

For most other NPCs, which use less sophisticated AI's however, the randomly executed movement code needs revision to allow the NPC to find a path out of the water or whatever.

Note that in most cases of environmental damage, including drowning from suffocation, the game does not keep track of the source of the damage, so making a drowning NPC hostile to the player, for example, would be a bit harder.
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grmblfzzz
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Re: Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

#15 Post by grmblfzzz »

As far as fixing traps goes, while this suggestion would work,
As for fixing traps, I think it should be pretty easy to make trap placement put the trap one short of a blocking obstacle...
and I don't see any situation where it wouldn't off the top of my head... It seems to me that it'd be easier to simply add another check to the one that traps already make (To see if there's another trap already in the target square) to see if the targeted tile is a wall/obstacle, and if so just disallow the action similar to if there's a trap there.

As for stair scumming, I honestly can't think of a real reason just to do a full reset of all the enemies stuff while removing any temporary effects. I mean, I suspect that no form of stair scumming is desired by DG judging from the fact that most stuff resets now anyway. Anything less than that pretty much just means that isolated random classes will have highly abusable things not available to most.

Lastly about the drowning: Adding some more intelligent pathing to try to get out of water would be the most obvious and reasonable solution, granted. Might be kind of a minor pain in the ass though, and I personally don't think it's a huge deal. Much less of a problem than all the stuff I've listed under the Game-Breaking variety, anyway. It's a 1-shot xp/item boost which doesn't really impact the game much overall, and you always run the risk of getting killed by random AOE's to boot.

Alternatively, could make NPC's that start drowning go hostile if you've shoved them around, would also solve the problem.

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