Prodigy Balance Discussion

[grmblfzzz]

I'd like to take another quick stab at convincing people to change Worldly Knowledge real quick. I admit that as is, it's conceptually useful... but I bet if you were as unlazy as srulz and willing to go look at tracking data you would find that it's more or less never used on any difficulty. Nor, I'd venture to say, and if anything I'd bet it'll be used less post patch as there's just going to be so many nifty/better options. Removing the zigur/magic restrictions bot makes more sense thematically (Alchemy or Field Control would constitute worldly knowledge for anyone!), but it'd open up build options without risking any imbalance I can think of.

Anyway, as for Mental Tyrany: I'd say there's less of an issue if TF was changed to 50% conversion, which definitely brings them more in line. I agree with HousePet that the pen is quite important, but it still has it at the moment at least, and I can still see using it as is. Bringing it to 50% conversion, saccing the bonus damage would be fine.

I was initially on the fence about reducing the conversion, which was the unique/cool thing about it and TF, but I'm pretty sure stition/sage are fundamentally right, and 100% conversion just makes for too easy shenanigans and hard to balance overall damage. It can currently already get out of hand, and anytime there's an addition to +dmg of a specific type, it'll risk that just being the best to stack for things like this.

[SageAcrin]

Worldly Knowledge is definitely used on Normal. For a while(when prodigies were more uneven), it was one of the ten or so used. It's dropped off a fair deal since then, but I still see it every so often.

Still, I like the idea of it breaking the normal AM/etc. rules, even if that doesn't add a lot of scope to it. Maybe adding a little more category, too. 1.0 could be okay.

[srulz]

I personally do think that creating a specific exception case for a very large-spanning thing like AM/Arcane would only be a recipe for disaster. But then again, I'm not too familiar with Lua, so feel free to prove me wrong

It'll be safer to just boost the category mastery to 1.2, as 1 prodigy point exchanged for 3 cat points (0.8 + 0.2 + 0.2) would be a good enough trade.

p/s: I do get Worldly Knowledge: Celestial Light on my recent Archmage clear but that's because I can't be bothered to restart, heh.

[HousePet]

Reducing the restrictions on Worldly Knowledge won't allow an antimagic character to use a magic category. But it would allow magic or rune using characters to access a category normally only available to non magic users.
I think that is fair. Antimagic is about restrictions and Arcane is more about freedom of choice. Also none of the potential options for arcane users are antimagical at all so no weirdness would be doable.

And the category masteries should all start at 1.0

As an extra, Worldy Knowledge could also grant +0.1 mastery to all generic categories.

[supermini]

Arcane dudes are the only one who will benefit, as they will get track. It's not a direct nerf to antimagic users but it does remove one of the advantages they get over arcane users.

[Zonk]

Small thought I had: Should something be done about the interaction of Draconic Body and Unstoppable?
IF read the code right, the prodigy can trigger while one is Unstoppable, which means it's a waste...

[Mewtarthio]

p/s: I do get Worldly Knowledge: Celestial Light on my recent Archmage clear but that's because I can't be bothered to restart, heh.

That's the rub, isn't it? The only real reason to take Worldly Knowledge is because you didn't get an escort you wanted. I'd like there to be a reason for you, at the start of the game, to think "Man, I'd really like to build this character to get Worldly Knowledge" instead of "Okay, I should plan on going for Worldly Knowledge if the escorts don't pan out." A few things that come to mind:

• Make all escort categories available regardless of arcane status (though obviously the Ziguranth still shouldn't be able to learn spells)
• Make additional generic trees available that can't be learned from escorts, such as Mentalism and Conveyance
• Boost the mastery to 1.0
• Give the player some free generic points to spend on their new talent tree

[b0rsuk]

Has no one ever looked at Swift Hands from interface point of view ? This prodigy, like no other, encourages players to bore themselves. You could theoretically change equipment after every single enemy. A prolonged, monotonous activity yielding an usually small, but safe gain - that's the definition of grinding. I can't imagine seriously using it without an add-on:
- talent 1: targeted ability to dress perfectly against the enemy.
- talent 2: an ability which makes a list of perfect equipment for each enemy in view, then dresses you in items common to all of the lists.

Additionally, this prodigy benefits the most from having an enourmous, cluttered inventory list. Not just allowing (I Can Carry The World), but encouraging player to have a huge inventory should be a crime.

[Kaja Rainbow]

Has no one ever looked at Swift Hands from interface point of view ?

You clearly haven't read this thread at all.

[Thasero]

I've been playing on development builds with the changes. Two comments...

First, the changes to Vital Shot and Windblade are excellent. Windblade can be extremely powerful if you have on-hit proc effects. It's clearly the case that you should always pick Vital Shot if you are an archer and always pick Windblade if you dual-wield, but that's not necessarily a balance problem that needs to be fixed; you still have to make up your mind about the second prodigy.

Second, I Can Carry The World! is now quite useful - but it's usually strictly better than Arcane Might for hybrid characters. 40 Strength not only boosts the damage of strength-based weapons, it also gives you 40 physical power, 12 physical save, and a large boost to strength-scaled runes and infusions. Add the fatigue elimination and it's clearly superior, even if your Magic stat is very high. I think it would be better to rework Arcane Might than to re-nerf I Can Carry The World.

[SageAcrin]

Well, there's the obvious.

Make Arcane Might give 25% of your Strength as a Spellpower bonus.

[Thasero]

Naturally!

Here's two more serious proposals. It seems better to move away from straight damage bonuses, since "I Can Carry The World!" now does that already. Arcane Might should still be a prodigy that makes mage-fighter hybrids better, but the mechanics should be a little different.

First proposal:

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You have learned to channel arcane powers through your weapons, making combat and magic alike flow seamlessly.  Your attack speed and spellcasting speed are both increased by X%.

Windtouched Speed gives a 20% global speed boost, so 25% feels fair here; you won't get a bonus to your speed for movement, items, inscriptions, or non-weapon techniques, but a character that takes this prodigy will usually be either fighting or casting spells. In this form, the prodigy helps with both defense and offense, since it boosts support and healing spells, but it makes you run through your resources and cooldowns faster.

The major question is whether we're OK with turning it into a prodigy that's also great for pure spellcasters. On the one hand, Arcane Might is meant to be an ability for boosting hybrids. On the other hand, it's actually a bit odd that there ISN'T currently a magic-based prodigy that just helps you cast spells!

If it needs to be hybrid-specific, it could give a lower bonus to combat and spellcasting speed, but also grant a large physical power bonus. That only helps characters who use weapons. As a plus, that would improve the damage of staff combat quite a bit, and it would make sense that this prodigy is good for staff users.

Second proposal:

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You have learned to channel arcane powers through your weapons, inflicting terrible harm on enemies vulnerable to destructive magic.  When you strike an enemy with your weapon, X% of your physical damage will be converted into the non-physical, non-mind damage type against which your target is weakest.  If the target is weakest against physical damage, you will strike them normally.

Most monsters have 0% as their lowest resistance, so in practice this usually reads "You now have X% physical resistance penetration". It's worse against monsters with a high resist all and better against monsters with one negative elemental resistance.

Basically I like this concept because it's great against some particular, annoying monsters that have a high physical resistance and/or a large weak point. Luminous horrors? -50% darkness resistance. Worm that walks? -50% fire. At the same time, negative resistances aren't that common in ToME, and most monsters have a physical resist that is either 0% or pretty low. On balance, I'm not sure what X should be.. and the effect would be a bit tricky to code.

Thoughts?

[SageAcrin]

Former one bothers me for some reason I can't put a finger on...maybe it's just because of Shadowblades suddenly zooming around at 250%~ speed thanks to stacking that and Shadow Feed and Essence of Speed.

I do rather like the second, but since it's such a common practice to mono-element stack damage and respen for your primary element(to what I consider almost unhealthy degrees, but I'm a really defensive player. ), I wouldn't be surprised if many players considered it a downgrade to the talent, strangely enough. One of those weird cases where I'm not sure the metagame mentality of players is right, but where, because of it, the idea is hard to utilize.

Maybe it could just average the target's resistance to your physical attack and their lowest resist, for the purposes of physical hits? Still sounds hard to code, though.

[HousePet]

How about making it pick the lower between physical and arcane, and convert accordingly?
Actually I'd still like the damage from the 50% magic wepoan damage modifier to be arcane.
Still doesn't feel right. Ideally there should be a two way synergy between physical and magical combat.

+50% magic modifier weapon boost.
+50% damage shield penetration for all your damage.
Physical weapon hits can Spellshock your enemies.

Gives it a similar ability to penetrate resistances but isn't as confusing.

[Doctornull]

Ideally there should be a two way synergy between physical and magical combat.

Hmm. What if it combined the speed boost to casting & melee with an inverse Eye of the Tiger effect?

- You gain +15% speed to spellcasting and melee attacks.
- When you crit with a melee attack, reduce the cooldown of one of your spell talents by 1.
- When you crit with a spell, reduce the cooldown of one of your technique talents by 1.

Now it's not that great for pure casters, but brilliant if you're constantly switching between attack talents and spells.