Adding Replayability Especially Early Game

[edge2054]

Because it gets really tedious doing the start dungeons over and over again and power-gamers feel the need to do every single dungeon to give themselves as much of an advantage as they can get before tackling tier 2 dungeons. (And I say that with no offense to power-gamers, I am something of one myself).

It really boils down to this Avian, just because zones are optional doesn't mean that most players will view them as skippable. The rewards for doing every tier 1 dungeon are to high for most people to pass up (you get a level and an artifact at least out of each one) which turns the early game into a repetitive slog through easy dungeons.

Restricting access cuts the early game from 6 to 8 dungeons down to 2 or 3 which makes the early game hump much easier to get through. Yes it means players will be tackling tier 2 dungeons with less gear and fewer levels but it also means players will be getting out of the safe zones and into the challenging ones faster. People are complaining that the early game is to much of a grind but they refuse to cut any dungeons from their routine. What Grey and I are suggesting is akin to kicking a baby bird out of the nest.

Or to put it another way, the starting dungeons account for about 50% of the west. Why does the player need to do six to eight tier 1 dungeons before moving on to the tier 2 stuff? Pushing players out of the safety net sooner will help shorten the game and make the early game feel a lot less tedious. There's really not an in-game reason for why every dungeon shouldn't be doable for everyone but there's a very good game balance reason to do it. Spending 50% of your time in the first half of the game killing level 10 monsters gets old.

[bricks]

That sounds really rough for certain class/race combos. Also, artifact spreads are going to be worse. Restarting a Shalore rogue 80 times to get him through the starting zones isn't a good way to create replayability.

Truthfully, apart from how gimped classes are until they can break into their second-tier talents (start the player at a higher level?) I don't find the early levels tedious at all. Not compared to SWL or the Maze.

[Varil]

I think it'd be good to give every starter zone a "Kill-Bill" style quest, and close off non-appropriate classes.

If the opportunity for artifacts/loot is a problem...maybe a race-neutral tier-1 dungeon could show up somewhere? It could be a 3-4 level dungeon with 1-2 bosses. That'd give every race 3 dungeons and 4-5 bosses to get started with. If escort quests started in the "neutral" dungeon, it'd also give players a little time to actually get their character in gear before being thrown into the worst quests in the game.

I also agree that shortening the Tier-2 dungeons would be nice. Generally after doing 3 levels of a dungeon I'm sick of it and ready to fight somewhere else, and the Tier 2 dungeons are the most painful about this because they're all 'themed'. The Maze is very slow to play through, and the Sandworm Lair is the only dungeon in the game that I actively feel the need to run straight for the stairs and not look back.

The exception, I think, is the Old Forest. It's a bit 'special' because of what's at the end of it, so I think it'd be appropriate to leave it at 5 levels.

[Grey]

There is no problem with xp or loot in this situation - or at least there shouldn't be, since it's a return to the same situation we had a few betas ago when there was just Trollmire and Kor'Pul. The difference between then and now is a variety of starts depending on race. Also it doesn't make sense that the Dwarf and Yeek areas are single-race only, but not the other races. All races should be equal (with the exception I guess of undead, and the classes with an extra starter quest - though maybe that should be expanded upon). If there is a problem with loot or xp then we can up the loot and xp in all starter zones to compensate.

Overall I think it makes the game much more interesting and less repetitive, and more importantly makes it viable to add new content such as random zones. At the moment there is too much low level content, and adding more would just make the game more tedious, not more interesting.

[bricks]

I suppose. I'm not sold on random zones, though. Farportals currently just seem like a great way to die. I really despise random bosses.

[Devorius]

How about making these restrictions optional. Just like many roguelikes that give you option to enable/disable stairscumming, mob scumming, plus a number of other gameplay mechanics thus allowing everyone to play the way they enjoy the most from casual to hardcore. Tome used to offer many of these options... I power game myself, but I also enjoy experimenting with different playstyles. Just because the loudest voices tend to be the most picky, doesn't mean their particular view should limit others.

Granted, these things vary depending on the overarching design of the game; however, Tome (esp. as a roguelike) has always driven the line of open gameplay and generally, these type of content and gameplay restrictions conflict with the idea of open gameplay.

The preceding was my opinion, so take what you will.

[edge2054]

Something else that came up tonight on IRC while I was going through the low level monsters is that most of the low level monsters are pretty boring, at least in my opinion.

So what's everyone elses opinions on zones like Deep Bellow vs. the Trollmire? Would more interesting NPCs like the Deep Bellow set be something you guys would consider to be good or bad for starting dungeons? Maybe not in that density or to that extreme but would you guys be annoyed by enemies with that level of depth in starting zones or would you welcome it?

[lenocinor]

How about making these restrictions optional.

I have a different idea. The problem with all these low-level dungeons is that some classes (or some people) need them just to get by, and it should be OK for them to do that. But powergamers also know that their chances of winning will be increased if they play the low-level dungeons, even if they know they can beat the main dungeons without grinding. Why? Because all beating less dungeons rewards you with is less loot and an underleveled character.

This seems backwards from an economics perspective; you should be rewarding people that play well, not punishing them. So why not give them items or levels or stats somehow if they beat a dungeon while underleveled? That way if you're playing a strong class or are really good at the game you can get the same benefit faster, and everybody can play the game the way that they want.

So what's everyone elses opinions on zones like Deep Bellow vs. the Trollmire? Would more interesting NPCs like the Deep Bellow set be something you guys would consider to be good or bad for starting dungeons? Maybe not in that density or to that extreme but would you guys be annoyed by enemies with that level of depth in starting zones or would you welcome it?

I like the idea, but the problem again is that this screws up some builds. In this case, I'd want to be able to choose. Put in both kinds of areas and let the player decide. Think you can handle a harder area in exchange for more levels? Pick the hard starting area instead of the regular one.

[jotwebe]

I'd say not quite to the extent that deep bellow has. Although its dangerousness is excerbated by the layout - often not easy to fight things one-on-one. I don't do it as a second dungeon with cursed, anyway...

[edge2054]

This seems backwards from an economics perspective; you should be rewarding people that play well, not punishing them. So why not give them items or levels or stats somehow if they beat a dungeon while underleveled? That way if you're playing a strong class or are really good at the game you can get the same benefit faster, and everybody can play the game the way that they want.

This gives me an idea.. or rather a way to incorporate yufra's idea.

What if yufra's random zone idea could only spawn in tier 2 dungeons but the player was only guaranteed one per tier 1 dungeon boss they left alive? Once the random zone was entered a tier 1 boss would despawn or whatever to prevent the player from going back and killing it.

But the idea is that players who skip some of the tier 1 dungeons get more interesting and possibly better loot in the tier 2 dungeons. It expands upon the quoted idea (which kinda works but only addresses half the issue of why people clear all the tier 1 dungeons, the other half being more chances at artifact drops).

[Grey]

Sounds too gamey to me. Any restriction shouldn't feel artificial.

[edge2054]

True.

[Zonk]

Not a fan of restricting things just because player can use them to 'grind', so really against disallowing tier 1 zones not from your race unless it makes sense(yeeks, dwarves...)
Also remember disallowing tier 1 zones would also mean disallowing their backup guardians, so sometimes you'll end up losing one bosses, not one.

Why does the player need to do six to eight tier 1 dungeons before moving on to the tier 2 stuff?

They don't.

Pushing players out of the safety net sooner will help shorten the game and make the early game feel a lot less tedious. There's really not an in-game reason for why every dungeon shouldn't be doable for everyone but there's a very good game balance reason to do it. Spending 50% of your time in the first half of the game killing level 10 monsters gets old.

...which is why they're not mandatory Can't we just accept people have different playing styles, where some want to rush to the end and some want to do EVERYTHING possible?

I'm not opposed to *incentives* to not do all tier 1 zones, though, as long as they make sense - I feel the most narratively satisfying way would be to have extra rewards(or even just achievements/bragging rights)for winning the game/reaching some important objectives(say, getting to the East)having spent less than X turns.
This would also reward people who don't rest fully after each fight, and yes it WOULD be biased for/against some classes. So? Better to save the world sooner than later.

Alternatively, I do like the idea of competing adventurers clearing zones on their own(provided you can eventually hunt down their parties and get the arts yourself )

Also it doesn't make sense that the Dwarf and Yeek areas are single-race only, but not the other races. All races should be equal (with the exception I guess of undead, and the classes with an extra starter quest - though maybe that should be expanded upon).

The dwarf and yeek restrictions make sense from a narrative viewpoint - also, I'm pretty sure races are not meant to be 'equal', but merely viable.
I don't really see an issue with some races being significantly harder or easier.


PS: I'm surprised people love Bill so much. I mean, it's 'just' an extra level/boss, and the 'collect lore to unlock it' thing might be interesting the first few times, but I don't personally find it more exciting than clearing a nice vault, other than the guaranteed artifact.

[edge2054]

Not a fan of restricting things just because player can use them to 'grind', so really against disallowing tier 1 zones not from your race unless it makes sense(yeeks, dwarves...)
Also remember disallowing tier 1 zones would also mean disallowing their backup guardians, so sometimes you'll end up losing one bosses, not one.

Really it's more then this though Zonk. The incentive to do all of the tier 1 dungeons is really high. You get generally a level or two out of every dungeon you do as well as an artifact and a handful of blue or purple items just off the boss alone.

That's really hard for anyone to pass up and mandatory or not most players are going to do it anyway because of what they can get out of it and they'll do it even if they're tired of doing it and that's when it becomes tedious.

I think a really simple solution would be for tier one bosses you don't have the quest for to not spawn and Prox's loot to be relocated to the floor if you don't have Prox as a quest. It's simple and it takes away the biggest incentives.

If you want an in-game reason, maybe an adventurer party beat you to the boss

[Fela]

I'm still not seeing the problem with it.

Only few of the tier1 dungeons feel especially 'grindy' to me (Trollmire may actually be the worst of the lot).

If i only want to kill the boss i'll often dive fast and if i don't do that i usually use those zones to get a better feel for the new class i'm playing vs. different types of opponents.

Fighting all the t1 bosses takes a small bit of randomness from the game regarding low level artifacts and IMO less randomness is a good thing.