*IMPORTANT* To middle-earth or not to middle-earth

[Susramanian]

Tired of Mediocre Engines?
Tricked-Out Modern Engine
Typical Olde Medieval Environment
Turn-based Orc-killing Meditative Experience

I think we'll need some original proper nouns before we come up with something serious

[edge2054]

Personally I'm a fan of custom settings simply because they allow more freedom in direction and development. You never have to worry about staying true to lore.

On the other hand, it's a lot more work because you have to come up with your own backstory.

Also Gwai, Angband is set in Middle Earth and is one of the most well known roguelikes ever so I'd say setting a game their isn't anything unique.

All of that said...

I think your concerns DarkGod are valid. The Tolkien Estate hasn't given Tome or Angband issues yet but that doesn't mean they won't. It might just be that you're not on their radar.

I did a bit of digging on the web and found a few things that I don't feel bode well.

Random forum post.

Up until recently you have been able to see my map of The Shire here. But since The JRR Tolkien Estate Limited doesn't allow Lord of the Rings-fans to make their own maps of the Middle-earth world, I have been forced to remove it.

Tolkien Estate FAQ

Can I / someone else write / complete / develop my / their own version of one of these unfinished tales ? (or any others)
The simple answer is NO.
You are of course free to do whatever you like for your own private enjoyment, but there is no question of any commercial exploitation of this form of "fan-fiction".
Also, in these days of the Internet, and privately produced collectors’ items for sale on eBay, we must make it as clear as possible that the Tolkien Estate never has, and never will authorize the commercialisation or distribution of any works of this type.
The Estate exists to defend the integrity of J.R.R. Tolkien’s writings. Christopher Tolkien's work as his father’s literary executor has always been to publish as faithfully and honestly as possible his father's completed and uncompleted works, without adaptation or embellishment.

Highlighted the text that worries me.


Now... all of that said; each country has different copyright enforcement laws and depending on how you want to play it having the game downloads hosted someplace like Sweden may make any C and D order a non-issue.

[edge2054]

Tired of Mediocre Engines?
Tricked-Out Modern Engine
Typical Olde Medieval Environment
Turn-based Orc-killing Meditative Experience

I think we'll need some original proper nouns before we come up with something serious

How about just leaving it at Tome, as in a large book full of good stuff.

[Zonk]

I picked the 2nd option - while I love fantasy, I'm not a fan of Tolkien himself.

However think removing all Tolkien references would take some work, and then...we'd be left with 'stock' fantasy, which I'm not a fan of either.

On the other hand, if we had some actually original races/creatures or even just simply removed elves, dwarves, hobbits and put nonhuman races that actually felt different...it would be interesting. Or even if the races were still 'stock'fantasy ones, but non tolkenian(say beastmen, various kinds of demons, and so on. Yes, I'm slightly biased because of my 'monster'module )

As for the randomyl generated map - I'd love it *IF* quests were more randomized. I don't mean the random events/escort quests, I mean the actual 'plot' quests which would feel weird if they were fixed in a random world.

So - if you feel like removing the Tolkien references and making a mostly original game world, it would take a significant amount of time(which could mean less time spent developing mechanics) HOWEVER you'd certainly have other people helping you

(slightly OT, perhaps but...anyone who has ideas for new settings might want to post something in the modules section. I don't think you're necessarily supposed to create the whole setting/module rules alone, it could also be used for people who want to give other ideas/design stuff. I remember doing something like this quite a few times on the old Tome wiki)

[Hedrachi]

If this poll is really necessary, why not host a modding contest for modders to make a suitable replacement if the Tolkien estate wants you to stop using Middle-Earth and other Tolkien stuff? Be a good way to get new mods going too.

[darkgod]

Because if I go with it I want it to be my creation No point in switching from a fan fiction to an other one.
Anyway the problem is not recreating new stuff it's if we should switch.

[Grey]

I was personally drawn to ToME4 by hearing it was set in the Fourth Age of Middle-Earth. I'm a huge Tolkien fan, and love the idea of pottering about in Middle-Earth, but have always found the roguelike takes on them to be distasteful. ToME4 is much more uninvolved (ie not bastardising) the original Tolkien writings whilst still allowing one to enjoy the setting. So I'm definitely all for keeping the Tolkien stuff - game won't be the same without them, in my opinion. Not unless you can think up a particularly enthralling backstory yourself (not saying you can't, but you've a lot to live up to).

The threat of the Tolkien estate is quite severe though. I know Thomas Biskup (creator of ADOM) removed all references to "hobbits" from his game because of worries over that. I would suggest that you might want to tone down some of the M-E stuff you have, especially where it relates to the Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. References to the Silmarillion or other writings aren't so bad, because they're less in the public eye and less likely to be recognised by lawyers. I think you definitely need to change every "hobbit" reference to "halfling" before the movies get made. I'd also say you should make the following changes to all references:

Gandalf -> Olorin
Aragorn -> Elessar
Morgoth -> Melkor
Saruman -> Curinor
Minas Tirith -> City of Kings or City of Stone
Mount Doom -> Orodruin or Mountain of Fire
Andmar -> Witch-king

and so on. Not removing the Middle-Earth references, but toning them down to less recognisable terms. As for the use of "Middle-Earth" itself, I guess this should be removed where possible too. Refer to the general world or "the lands" instead. TOME just means TOME - no need to give it a meaning.

If you tone things down like that then it would be more difficult for any annoying legal people to realise how invested the setting is in Middle-Earth. You might get a warning about some name-uses, which could be fixed on an individual basis.

[getter77]

Like others, while the 4th Age notion is an interesting one, legal things should be squared away on the safe'ish side considering the intention to "go big" here. (Especially given the likes of premium expansion/module/DLC notions mentioned a ways back---that surely attracts the estate vultures)

That said, I'm also rather a fan of the idea of not being constrained by the Tolkien stuff in general in terms of classes, powers, structure, etc. Odds are decent that having to confront a different paradigm in terms of setting and mechanics and the like will also have the benefit of stirring the progress of T-Engine 4 on fronts heretofore unanticipated.

I say go ahead and relatively quickly re-purpose the general setting of it once things are stable in terms of any of the technical and bug aspects and a suitable fantastical realm is reckoned. "Big idea" Roguelike worlds are tough to manage, but there are some serious ones scurrying about in recent times like Elona, Rayel, Peleron's Brilliant Rebirth, and various other burgeoning projects of late.

Otherwise, well, just roll with things as it happens and see how it all shakes out. It is a shame that the Estate doesn't have an OGL-like apparatus in place like Incursion will be able to avail itself of on the D&D side of things....

[Kemsha]

I think that tome remains a great game with or without Middle Earth references.

But I must confess, I'm a big fan of Tolkien and it adds to the game when I find Eowyns armour or travel to Minas Tirith.

In a roguelike the main thing is to kill monsters and get their loot but history is important, I think it differentiates a good game from a great game.
Right now we have de advantage of having a backgound story already set (and a great one it is!) and development can focus on gameplay sticking true to it.

If a new story is created, it has several problems:
- It has to be good, this is not as simple as it seems
- It has to be told during the game and that can slow down gameplay. Sometimes we just wanna get bloody as fast as possible
- You'd have to adapt it to the features already developed


That being said, I think it should be tried anyway. New story can also mean new opportunities, new visions and that's always good.

... and don't forget, we're here to help out

[overtrix]

Would be surprised if they're not fully aware already. A bit like surveying rivers - the sharp-eyed farmer probably can't be bothered to traipse across fields and hedges to deliver his dreaded "can I help you ?" line - but if you go and ask he might say "no" simply because he got out of bed the wrong side this morning.

[Narsil]

I was personally drawn to ToME4 by hearing it was set in the Fourth Age of Middle-Earth.

Me too, and that's why I'm against changing Middle Earth to Typical Fantasy World no. 3213123 or something like that.

[darkgod]

Not to be rude with myself but the fourth age as depicted in T4 currently is really generic fantasy, and badly bolted on. Mages firing manathurst, golems totting alchemists in a LOTR setting ?

[teachu2die]

i would be very sad to see the middle earth theme go. i would still play the game, but with dampened enthusiasm (at least until i got over it).
(that said, you're right DG, the game is pretty far from canonical at this point, so maybe it doesn't matter all THAT much...)

[Repton]

A few thoughts...

1. EA has probably paid a lot of money for the rights to make games set in Middle Earth. So your concerns are real.

2. That said, I think it depends how big you want to get. If your goal is to be a big player in the roguelike world, then you're probably OK. Angband has been a big player for a long time without being shut down. But if you intend to be bigger than Angband, or to go mainstream (e.g. Steam), then a Tolkien setting could cause real problems.

3. I'm a big fan of Tolkien, so I'd be sad to see it go. But if it's necessary -- then, so be it. I still play games like Nethack and ADOM, after all

[Grey]

Not to be rude with myself but the fourth age as depicted in T4 currently is really generic fantasy, and badly bolted on. Mages firing manathurst, golems totting alchemists in a LOTR setting ? ;)

I must admit I avoid playing alchemists partly cause of that. The rest of it... yeah, it's very much generic fantasy, but it's not that badly bolted on in many places. 'Angwolen' for instance sounds like a Tolkien name. Overall I think it works well enough, especially being set well after the main LotR events. Plus from what I've seen mentioned about the inclusion of the two blue Istari is quite a clever idea (though admittedly I have no idea what their involvement really is in the game - I've just seen the terms bandied about).

Anyway, it won't stop me playing if the setting changes now, but I think it might have stopped me ever playing in the first place.