Artifact and General Item Balance Discussion

[Sandman25]

Damn, it looks like I will need to read carefully all artifact lore in order to find clues on hidden properties.
Is there any other hidden info? Should I carefully read all those poems and 3 pages length stories?
It is somewhat time consuming when English is not your first language

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

The lore poems and stories are often more about backstory in the games lore (like showing you who the backup guardian for dreadfell is, and where he originally came from). That said, you SHOULD most definitely read the lore for artifacts, always. Often they give hints, for instance the robe of the conclave saying something about 'only humans can draw it's true power'. Putting it on while Cornac or Higher causes several new properties to reveal itself. Untouchable hints about protecting it's wearer (but only reveals the effect when you suddenly get hit and have an instant damage shield around you, never in the listed effects.) Prothotipe's eye hints that it doesn't work right, and might be bad in a golem, though I have yet to find and check it on a golem. The halfling foot hints that it's effect is different for halflings.

There are others. For instance, Corpathus. It's hidden property isn't truly visible until used for a prolonged period. Similarly, Morrigor and Anmalice have unusual properties not immediately evident. So does umbraphage. The list goes on.

Edit: That said, a lot of that background lore was written with care by the people who made the game. Seems only polite to devote some time to reading it at least once. But it won't cause you to miss hidden properties on an artifact. Only the artifact lore hints at that.

[PureQuestion]

Wonderful justification, Crim.

But next version, all/most of those items will have a special field stating the "hidden" effects.

I think racial bonuses are still mostly unlisted.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I can't claim to be happy with that, I think it takes some of the enjoyment and mystery out of those items. I'd much prefer a little box that says 'this item has powers you can't discern at first glance' or something. Maybe even fill it in after the powers have all been utilized at least once. (For instance, filling in after you get a shield from untouchable, or after seeing the waterspout from coral spray, or other effects. In the case of things like Corpathus, fill in after it's run it's complete circuit from lowest power to highest, and reset. Things like that.

I doubt I'll get my wish, but still.

[Doctornull]

I can't claim to be happy with that, I think it takes some of the enjoyment and mystery out of those items. I'd much prefer a little box that says 'this item has powers you can't discern at first glance' or something. Maybe even fill it in after the powers have all been utilized at least once. (For instance, filling in after you get a shield from untouchable, or after seeing the waterspout from coral spray, or other effects. In the case of things like Corpathus, fill in after it's run it's complete circuit from lowest power to highest, and reset. Things like that.

I doubt I'll get my wish, but still.

Brilliant. That would preserve the mystery for just long enough, and would reward even people who don't read spoilers.

[Zizzo]

That said, you SHOULD most definitely read the lore for artifacts, always.

The problem with that is that in-game lore is frequently (and by design) vague, mutually contradictory and fatally tainted by its nominal authors' various prejudices; the cautious player thus quickly learns not to trust it.

I'd much prefer a little box that says 'this item has powers you can't discern at first glance' or something.

My immediate in-game reaction to which would be to hit my Orb of Scrying and say, "Hey, Elisa. Found this thing, says it has some kind of 'hidden powers'. What can you tell me about it?" --- and if she can't help me with the item, it goes straight to the fortress storage room, and deservedly so.

Maybe even fill it in after the powers have all been utilized at least once.

...Except that to utilize said powers, the player kind of needs precisely the information you're withholding.

(For instance, filling in after you get a shield from untouchable, or after seeing the waterspout from coral spray, [...]

*blink* ...wait, what?! Coral Spray? The shield? It does something? Dammit, am I gonna have to go source diving again?

See, this is why this whole "hidden powers" business is just immitigably unfun. It can't add "enjoyment and mystery", because the mystery prevents the enjoyment; how am I supposed to enjoy my equipment's powers if I don't even know what they are? I can't make meaningful equipment decisions without full, unambiguous information, not "hints", and that inability makes the game less enjoyable.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

It encourages people to try different equipment. Rule of thumb - If it looks inappropriate for the tier (like untouchable) it's probably got something special.

Knowing that there is some sort of hidden power gives you the knowledge that 'hmmm, I should put this on for a floor or two, see if anything happens'.

This is exactly what I did when I first found untouchable. I was shocked to the point of having to clean up puddles of drool on the floor when I discovered it's hidden power, within 2 floors of putting it on. I promptly liked it enough to keep it on until endgame. I WON with that damn tier 3 armor. All because I experimented with it. Again, knowing that there's something there to see TELLS you to experiment.

I don't see how that breaks your ability to make choices. Don't wear 'unknown' equipment into high peak, sure. But put it on when you're wandering through some of the safer areas. Yeah, maybe this creates issues on higher difficulties, but I've never had a problem with a bit of experimentation on normal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing your position, I'm trying to understand it. How is 'experimentation' not part of looking at an item? Discovering if it suits your build? Any set of equipment you change is always a loss and a gain, in one aspect or another, it's not like your giving everything you have up to try this new piece out.

If you're SO adamant that you MUST magically know everything about an item the moment you look at it, then a box that says 'This item appears to have powers not immediately discernable' tells you "Alright, I want to know what this does, but don't want to risk experimenting, so I'll go source dive it". I don't think that's the right approach, but it at least lets you know. As often as coral spray shows up, I'm surprised you've never seen it's effect on a shield user before.

[HousePet]

I totally don't believe that anyone would not have noticed the Coral Spray thing.

[PureQuestion]

They can't notice if they never bothered to use it at all.

In the case of Coral Spray, I always felt that on block effects should be clear just like, say, on hit effects.

[HousePet]

But its a decent shield and the lowest teir art shield.
And that doesn't take into account enemies using it.

[Sandman25]

Thank you for the explanation, Crim!

I read stories but not very carefully ("diagonally") because there are too many unknown words for me (I speak technical English mostly) and I would need to use Ctrl+Alt+Del to switch to online dictionary which is irritating. I hate reading poems even in my first language, by the way
I will read everything carefully at least once, fortunately it is easy to do in Fortress' library.

Regarding the Coral Spray, I was surprised it could damage enemies on block and I would really like to be able to see all the details in game. I guess its damage is based on blocked damage but I am not sure.

[HousePet]

A lot of the existing activates on artifacts don't state what they scale with.

[Sandman25]

A lot of the existing activates on artifacts don't state what they scale with.

Do you mean that they always scale with something? I thought that's because they have a fixed effect.

[HousePet]

As in the Spellblaze Echoes activation scales with magic, Eden's Guile scales with cunning, Gwai's Burninator scales with magic, Neira's Memory scales with magic, Stormlash scales with magic and dex, Robe of Force scales with cunning and will...
You can sort of guess them based on the power source, but its still vague.

[Sandman25]

Thank you HousePet!