Suggestions re: talent trees

[feanor70115]

My most consistent grip with building characters is that, in hybrid classes (Arcane Blades, Chronomancers, and so on) there are far too many talent trees to consider. In building a character, one has to choose to ignore significant, necessary branches of ability trees in order to to obtain others. The result is that saving throws come at the expense of ability to do damage, combat abilities come at the expense of racial abilities, and so on.

I don't think it makes sense for racial abilities to require assigned ability points. These should come automatically with a character's level and should be separate from either skills or generics (the lack of generic points is a major survival problem anyhow).

The various ability trees usually or always require a player to get every ability on the way up. I suspect most of us could name abilities we are required to put a point in and then never use. Access should come with levels and stat scores, in my opinion, and never depend on previous points in that tree.

Furthermore, in the future I'd like to see the ability to get NPCs to use abilities that benefit the player, for instance being able to buy potions (at enormous prices) from alchemists, get mindcrafters in towns to reshape weapons and armor, pay alchemists to set gems in equipment. Also, if we can acquire talent categories or archery training from shopkeepers, why not points in the combat trees?

This would add a bit of realism (if that word applies to a fantasy roguelike at all) and remove some of the temptation to cheat.

- F.

[supermini]

My most consistent grip with building characters is that, in hybrid classes (Arcane Blades, Chronomancers, and so on) there are far too many talent trees to consider. In building a character, one has to choose to ignore significant, necessary branches of ability trees in order to to obtain others. The result is that saving throws come at the expense of ability to do damage, combat abilities come at the expense of racial abilities, and so on.

For classes that have a lot of talent trees, it allows different builds. Especially hybrid classes offer a lot of options and usually have multiple attribute dependencies, so they are not the easiest to play.

As for balance of combat abilities, saving throws, etc. that's a function of both the class and how you gear up. Finding the right balance is something you have to figure out from experience.

I don't think it makes sense for racial abilities to require assigned ability points. These should come automatically with a character's level and should be separate from either skills or generics (the lack of generic points is a major survival problem anyhow).

If you do that, racial abilities would have to be meaningless or penalties would have to be higher - you don't want to be handing anyone skeleton racial tree for free. Right now all races except for yeek have a life rating bonus and an xp penalty, which are in balance with each other (xp penalty makes the early game harder, life rating bonus makes the late game easier). Racial tree is completely optional, and very attractive for classes that have poor innate generic options. If you don't plan using your racial abilities and have a lot of trees you need to unlock, you're probably better off playing a cornac.

As for "lack of generic points being a survival problem", that's debatable. Survivability for most classes is better accomplished through category points (extra infusions/runes). Except for certain classes that have innate utility (like archmages), I almost always try to put my level 10 category point in an extra infusion slot.

The various ability trees usually or always require a player to get every ability on the way up. I suspect most of us could name abilities we are required to put a point in and then never use. Access should come with levels and stat scores, in my opinion, and never depend on previous points in that tree.

'Access with level and stat score' is also a good way to eliminate choice.

If you put points in something you don't use, it's either on the way to something else or you are planning poorly. Former is not really a problem, just take that ability out of the hotbar.

This would add a bit of realism (if that word applies to a fantasy roguelike at all) and remove some of the temptation to cheat.

- F.

Don't bring "realism" into a game mechanics debate. If you have a temptation to cheat because you cannot handle failing...You're better off playing something with a 'load game' option.

[5k17]

I don't think it makes sense for racial abilities to require assigned ability points. These should come automatically with a character's level and should be separate from either skills or generics (the lack of generic points is a major survival problem anyhow).

Treating racials differently from other talents is an interesting idea, but just getting them automatically gives players too little control.

The various ability trees usually or always require a player to get every ability on the way up. I suspect most of us could name abilities we are required to put a point in and then never use. Access should come with levels and stat scores, in my opinion, and never depend on previous points in that tree.

I agree it doesn't make terribly much sense to have to spend a point on some talent in order to learn another talent without any obvious connection (other than being in the same tree, that is). However, it would probably not be feasible to completely change that; having higher requirements for the not initially available skills that decrease with points spent in other skills in the tree might be an interesting compromise.

Also, if we can acquire talent categories or archery training from shopkeepers, why not points in the combat trees?

I don't think I like that idea, but please do elaborate.

[Grey]

You're complaining about what I love most about Arcane Blades! One has to make choices, sacrifices, tough decisions. This is the essence of good gameplay, in my opinion. Talent choices should not be easy in my view. If you just want a simple ride with obvious talent picks and no real thought involved then go play a fire mage ;)

[ZiMMy]

Treating racials differently from other talents is an interesting idea, but just getting them automatically gives players too little control.

I think they shouldn't be given automatically without choise, but should be choosen like in X-COM! (probably with more choices in each line).

[Sradac]

your sniper went on 8 missions and only got 4 kills?!?!?!? you're doing it wrong

[bricks]

I think removing the previously invested talent point requirement is OK. The level and stat requirements are generally much more significant, at least until you start running out of generic points.

I'd like to see even fewer reasons to manage items or head to towns. Granting the Combat Training tree from the start wouldn't change much, considering that it's just not that useful in the first few levels for classes that don't get it, and artifact ID'ing is entirely pointless.

[ZiMMy]

your sniper went on 8 missions and only got 4 kills?!?!?!? you're doing it wrong

Not mine.

[hamrkveldulfr]

But if you allow anyone to reshape weapons or imbue armor for money, then you kind of remove any incentive in investing in those categories. Why waste my precious skills if I can just grind some money and have someone else do that for me?