Improvements to the default keyboard layout

[krishh]

The current default keyboard layout is really uncomfortable to use, as it uses buttons from all over the keyboard, meaning that you have to move your hands back and forth, even though the game has a relatively limited input set for a roguelike.

It also lacks support for the yuhjklbn movement set, which allows for more comfortable use of all hotkeys, since using it you have hands near all of them, allows playing the game on laptops without reconfiguring controls, and is a genre standart.

So i propose that, to fix both of these problems, most letter inputs are moved to the left side of the keyboard, so that they can be used with the left hand, while the right rests on the numpad or on yuhjklbn, for which this also frees up space.

Introducing yuhjklbn displaces some keys, namely 'u'se, 'j'ournal and 'l'ook, movement mode (No mnemonic with b already) as well as the run toggle '.', which serves as numpad-5 in the yuhjklbn scheme. I propose moving them to e'v'oke item, 'q'uest journal (Why is this currently under ctrl-q when plain q is unused, a relic from 'q'uaff?) and e'x'amine, displacing weapon switch to 's'witch, and 'A'uto-attack. Is the run toggle really necessary? I'd think the mouse would be better for one handed play, and with two hands shift-run is much more comfortable.

This just leaves 'i'nventory, show 'm'essage log (Again a ctrl-shortcut when a shift-shortcut is available and there is no reason to make inaccessible on purpose, like ctrl-x, which you don't want people to press accidentaly.) and use talents (No mnemonic for m here as well.) on the right hand side of the keyboard. As far as I can tell, 'e'quipment already functions identically to the former and you can move use talents to 'a'ctivate talents and message log to 'S'how message log.

There's also < >, but they are used rarely enough that they aren't that uncomfortable. Though, unless there are any ladders where you can go both up and down, you could just replace them with a single 'G'o through button.

And with these simple changes the default control scheme requires no hand movement both with numpad (other than to reach for the hotkeys from 6 to =) and yuhjklbn movement, as well as even allowing the latter scheme in the first place.

I'd also add o as a secondary key for autoexplore, simply to be more welcoming to crawl players, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of my suggestion.

[Devorius]

It works out for me on a laptop with the large exception of diagonals. What I'd like is something I saw in another roguelike (Elona, IIRC). What's done there is holding Control forces diagonal input only, i.e. it won't accept arrow-up, arrow-down, arrow-right and arrow-left; only up + right, up + left, down + right, down + left.

However, this thread should probably be in the Ideas board...

[Rectifier]

If you have issues on layouts like laptops, you can try using Autohotkey (google search) in some cases.

[krishh]

It works out for me on a laptop with the large exception of diagonals. What I'd like is something I saw in another roguelike (Elona, IIRC). What's done there is holding Control forces diagonal input only, i.e. it won't accept arrow-up, arrow-down, arrow-right and arrow-left; only up + right, up + left, down + right, down + left.

However, this thread should probably be in the Ideas board...

The problem with using modifiers for diagonals is that shift and ctrl are already in use, and alt is a pretty uncomfortable modifier to use. The arrrow keys are also in a very poor position on the keyboard with nothing near them.

I guess a moderator would be able to move the thread if necessary?

If you have issues on layouts like laptops, you can try using Autohotkey (google search) in some cases.

I could also just rebind the keys in-game. However, I don't believe I should have to rebind 30+ keys (Since you also have to rebind shift-dir and ctrl-dir.) to be to play the game comfortably on a laptop, or even 6+ keys even when playing with a numpad. If you want to attract new players to the game, a comfortable default control scheme they are likely to be familiar with is probably a good idea, and I don't think the game is yet at a stage where maintaining legacy support should override improvements to the game.

[Rectifier]

I could also just rebind the keys in-game. However, I don't believe I should have to rebind 30+ keys (Since you also have to rebind shift-dir and ctrl-dir.) to be to play the game comfortably on a laptop, or even 6+ keys even when playing with a numpad. If you want to attract new players to the game, a comfortable default control scheme they are likely to be familiar with is probably a good idea, and I don't think the game is yet at a stage where maintaining legacy support should override improvements to the game.

Actually playing with the numpad is the best option because you can move in any direction with one keypress, not because of legacy support. If that were the case, then the mouse wouldn't be in this game at all. Which, by the way, the mouse can accomplish any task that the keyboard can.

I mentioned AutoHotkey because it is a scripting language that is really only limited by imagination. I do not recommend it unless you have taken at least one legit programming course.
For example: Using ahk you can theoretically capture your Fn input, stop the laptop from using the default Fn outputs, and assign your own actions. Want to have an extra 26+ hotkeys? This is one way. You could also do the same with something easier to work with like the Caps Lock key.

How you wish to spend your time is your choice, I was only trying to be helpful by mentioning an alternative.

[krishh]

Actually the best option is yuhjklbn as it does everything numpad does while working on laptops and keeping you right hand near the 6-= hotkeys. Regardless, my proposal would allow for more comfortable playing even with the numpad, as, when currently playing with numpad, neither hand is normally near the u,i,m,l,<,> keys, among others, and my layout would move those functions closer to the left hand.

By legacy support I meant that you offered me an alternative to changing the default control scheme, which I also took as support for keeping the current defaults. But my point is that they are bad defaults and should be replaced with something better and more comfortable, even if it means some players have to re-learn them.

[bricks]

What you are asking for doesn't really seem fair. The game provides the option to set keybindings. If that isn't worth your time, I don't see why it's worth Darkgod's time to rewrite them, and perhaps even more pointedly, everyone else's time to either learn the new keys or switch back to the old ones. I agree that the controls could be better, but most of those gripes come from the growing pains involved with the frequent UI changes.

As far as attracting new players goes, the yuhjklbn movement has to be one of the most unintuitive control schemes in existence. Not all players are coming from the hardcore roguelike community.

[krishh]

For starters, Darkgod setting up new defaults would save the effort for hundreds of players. And I'm not really sure I have to actually argue that it's worth dev time to set up good default controls. Your argument that existing players shouldn't have to learn new controls is exactly what I mean by legacy support. The game hasn't even left beta and you already want to limit its development so that you don't give any discomfort to existing players.

I already gave three very real gripes with the current control scheme that aren't just from growing pains - no yuhjklbn support, no laptop support, and frequent unnecessary arm movements.

And while yuhjklbn is somewhat unintuitive, particularly in the arbitrary assignment of up and down, it still takes about 10 minutes to get used to and is much better than asking new laptop players to manually reconfigure 30+ controls.

[Canderel]

I would suggest a couple of profiles: full 101 qwerty, laptop, and maybe some others the communty give of how they play. Obviously custom is also available.

[Grey]

I agree there should be a better default set. I have mine extensively redone and I'm not even on a laptop. The game can have multiple defaults, so it can support legacy and a more cohesive remake. The defaults should be based on easy mnemonics, grouped area (left side is best) and conforming to standards. I'd recommend mostly gearing towards modern PC RPG standards rather than roguelike standards though, since there is no singular RL standard and many of them are simply crazy. RL players are also more used to customising things themselves anyway - it's the less hardcore players that the defaults should target.

I also recommend that by default the middle mouse button should be auto-explore, since this is a thing of beauty when playing with just the mouse.

We should maybe have a thread comparing customized layouts and other interface tweaks we each apply.

[kilohertz]

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in lamenting the lack of Vi-style movement keys (hjklyubn). It'd be nice to be able to play on my netbook, though even on desktops it's so much more comfortable to be able to keep both hands on the home-row. I'm coming to ToME from Dungeon Crawl (I've had a grand total of two ascensions over roughly four years! woot!), and while I used to think vi-keys were totally awkward for the longest time and I stuck to numpad for movement, it took less than a week for me to get so used to them that it felt unnatural to jump back and forth from the numpad to the letter keys anymore. It might be worth noting that it was the purchase of a netbook that lead me to even give the vi-keys a chance. Also, as nice as mouse support is, it's never quite as quick as a keyboard (nor as comfortable, especially on a laptop).

Anyways, ToME seems to have come a long way since whenever it was that I had previously last checked it out (years ago?), is loads of fun and I'd love to see it succeed and be further embraced by the RL community, and as such would like to add my name to the list of those who think a better default keyset would be a good step in that direction. I've really enjoyed seeing how Dungeon Crawl has changed and evolved and improved over the years (due in no small part to listening to feedback from their players), and am kind of excited to see how that process progresses with ToME.

[Mithril]

Agree with what many have said here. Especially for a free game lots of people will download it just to try it out. Those not already hardcore rogueplayers will likely only give it a few minutes before making an initial judgement. If it is to hard to get into they will move on. So things like initial keybindings, initial options selected, and initial starting zones are very important.

[Grey]

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in lamenting the lack of Vi-style movement keys (hjklyubn). It'd be nice to be able to play on my netbook, though even on desktops it's so much more comfortable to be able to keep both hands on the home-row.

Customise the key commands then. I think vi-keys as defaults is the last thing we need to attract people from outside the genre. It could be worth making it clearer how to customise the keys though.

[Rectifier]

It really is easy to just change the keybindings; especially with access to modifiers like shift, control, and alt as well as support for 3 key combinations (shift+alt).