Cursed..

[konca]

Im pretty sure im right about this, ive tested this class few times and imo its completely unplayable and i alos played him in old betas ( before nerfs ) a lot. I mean there is no way y can go throught adventure mode without cheating or having mega luck. Last time i started as a dwarf and i cheated my way out throught first dungeon. I managed even to get to far far west but then i was fed up with constantly saves scumming. Im not a great tome expert but with classes like archmage, alchemist berserker , fighter etc. i usually dont have more then one death in the first half of the game. At lvl 27 he was still much weaker then my berserkers, fighters which are also melles combatants with ridiciolous easy start that simply means that he is underpowered.
His problems IMO:

1 Skillpoints distribution - its very painfull in the beggining. Nature of cursed combats skills is that they dont do too much early game without maxing out and high hate . So you have to choose betwen maxing something like slash to have any combat skill or go more for gloom or other utility skills.
Solution add some usefull side effects to slash for begining of the game ( stun ? overused idea .. ) make them less scale more with lvl less with hate ( for example
for frenzy +20% damage *lvl + X% * hate ). Mb make some of them "1 point wanders" ?

2 Too many generic trees - really y need to get so many usefull generic talents when as berserker or fighter y just go straight for weapon mastery + some acurracy. By doing that with cursed y end up with crappy equipment crappy regeneration etc.

3 Bad effective hp and general crappy tankiness outside of rampage for melle combatant. Really with 65 will gloom leech allowed me
suck arround max 20 hp . So probably with maxed will its around 30 hp / turn . Its much worse then good regeneration infusion. Along with very questionable
50% healing penalty which makes his early game mega crappy.
Outside of that he has only 12% damage reduction with maxed hate. No armour early and no defense late game means that these archers will kill you in few shots.
No healing etc. Solution : Mb add talent which lifesteal on cursed damage? or at least remove this -50% healing penalty or increasy cap on life leech of gloom..

4 Rampage cd - i believe its a design flaw - without rampage cursed is like berserker without his damage skills but it has 100 turn cd. So i spent 20 points on skill which i can use once in a blue moon. That really doesnt make sense to me. I would imagine it having 30/40 cd and mb nerf numbers if needed. But 100 is just to long.

5 Hate management - really painfull in the begining especially and for no reason your +hate equipment doesnt make any sense when more >10 hate doesnt do jack shit to your skills.

[konca]

A yee i forgot
6 Restriction to axes which are the worst in tome.

[edge2054]

While you may have some valid points konca your post starts off pretty inflammatory.

Also...

http://te4.org/characters/3587/tome/9bc ... 1cc000edf0

This was when the class was at it's weakest so completely unplayable sounds like a stretch.

I can't comment otherwise. I'm not a big fan of Cursed. But please temper your posts with a bit of consideration for the people who put their time and energy into the game.

[konca]

"While you may have some valid points konca your post starts off pretty inflammatory."
Y mean that i was cheating to play cursed ?
I m not sure what you wanted to say . I really respect all tome developers. I was trying to give some feedback on cursed class which i used to like a lot with some analysis.
OK . I think i got it . I used to many informal phrases - sorry for that - atm i speak english exclusively with close friends.

[edge2054]

It was the 'and imo its completely unplayable' part that I found inflammatory.

And I generally respect your ideas and posts Konca, you gave some valuable feedback on brawlers in the past that I remember specifically. I'm just saying the way you started your post felt pretty harsh and it makes everything said after it harder to swallow.

[marvalis]

For what it is worth, the current talent system does create some problems with scaling. Some classes have more problems with this than others. This is inherent to the design so there is not much that can be changed 'generally' about this.

Maybe with some concrete suggestions and proposed tweaks improvements can be made. The more specific and the more realistic the proposed changes are, the higher the chance of making it in the game. I cannot contribute much here since I don't really play cursed.

[greycat]

Cursed have been a struggle to balance. They started out VERY strong, and then they were dramatically weakened, and then they were slightly improved again post-b29 (giving two free points in combat skills). It seems that it's a hard class to get right.

I absolutely agree that they have too many Generic talent trees and therefore they have to spread themselves too thin. Make one of them a Class tree.

The 50% healing thing really, really hurts. It makes the early game a RNG crapshoot -- if you find a 150+ regen infusion (and aren't undead), you might live. If you aren't attacked by a slightly out of depth monster, you might live. And so on.

The autocursed equipment has the same effect -- If you find equipment that does NOT nerf your Con and Wil and Str, you might live. It can be very frustrating. Yes, granted, once you get to level 8 and put some (PRECIOUS RARE) generic points into that cursed equipment tree, you can start getting equipment that helps you instead of hurting you, but you still have to live that long, and you're spending points just to make up for a deficit that you started with to try to catch up to a vanilla Fighter, who meanwhile has spent those same points on better Armor Training or whatever....

[konca]

With cursed equipment its really easy to fix - just initially cursed can start with 0 points in this tree.
My impression is that his craptastick early game isnt balanced for amazing lategame so he needs some buffs / rebalances.

[hamrkveldulfr]

The start for cursed is amazingly difficult, especially now that the RNG seems to love giving you weapons and items that sap str, wil, and con. I actually do not see the problems with late game cursed though. if you put points into rampage you go into rampage randomly and it does not activate your cooldown, and with points put into the cursed item tree you can get absolutely unfairly buffed weapons and items.
They are not beserkers or fighters, they do have to rely on gloom to debuff so they take less damage. the negative effects of unnatural body force you to play halfway between an undead and an antimagic.
Cursed are my favorite class, and it does seem they are hurting badly for a little rebalancing right now, but i do think a big part of the problem most of us are having is just that they are about as fragile as a thief and try to play tank like a beserker.

[Reverend Bizarre]

Some thoughts about the class.

1. The abundance of generic trees. Cursed have 6 generic talent trees, while most other classes have 3 or 4. Something should be done with this situation, indeed.
2. Cursed items. When the concept of identifying things was thrown out of the game, the concept of cursed items (in classical roguelike sense, like ADoM or NetHack) automatically became pointless (the point of cursed items is to prevent use of the unidentified items; player still may try to equip them, but he'll never know if the item is good or bad. So, if find an orcish spear in the dungeon, it may be a badass weapon that will own everything 'til the middle game, or it may be a piece of crap, which you'll not be able to get rid of easily). So, I was fairly surprised when I heard about appearance of cursed items in ToME. The problem with 'em that they are mighty annoying and they don't add that much flavor in the game. Sure, cursed items may become quite nifty if you will improve Fateful Aura tree, but that's simply not fun. If there is a need to nerf Cursed, then nerf them some other way.
3. Strife tree. Looks like an inferior addition to Slaughter tree (though I must confess that I haven't seen that tree in action; Assail and Bait look good). I think that it should be buffed heavily and become a locked tree.
4. Weapon restriction: can someone explain me why axes are said to be the worst weapon in the game by some posters here? I see nothing wrong with this restriction. On the second thought, if it was removed, I wouldn't be against it. It doesn't add much to the game.

[greycat]

One thing about axes -- every rogue in the Maze used to drop one or two daggers, and every orc in Reknor and the East used to drop an axe. So when the Cursed class was first created, there was certainly no shortage of axes, assuming you could reach Reknor. (Also at this time, there was no "Weapon Combat" skill -- there were separate "Axe" and "Sword" and "Mace" skills, and you had to pick which one to specialize in. So going with Axe was a pretty good choice, given how many you would find in the late game; it meant you'd not see much benefit from killing the Elven Ruins boss for the guaranteed [at that time] artifact sword, but that was a minor trade-off.)

Game changes since the original Cursed design have had some unforeseen consequences.

[bricks]

4. Weapon restriction: can someone explain me why axes are said to be the worst weapon in the game by some posters here? I see nothing wrong with this restriction. On the second thought, if it was removed, I wouldn't be against it. It doesn't add much to the game.

Axes have high crit change but low damage; maces have high damage but low crit. Swords fall somewhere in between. This is probably more of an issue early game since its much harder to scale smaller numbers. Crits are great for long fights and mostly worthless for all but the most resilient of early-game mobs (trolls, bears, etc.). Also, just look at raw number for iron and voratun weapons, a voratun greatmaul does 17% more damage on average strikes than a voratun battleaxe; the difference is 44% for iron weapons.

I think if there is any confusion as to why Cursed is so frustrating, it's 1) the class becomes very powerful (or so I've heard) in the late game but struggles in the early game, and 2) superficially it appears to be a berserker-style class (start with a 2-handed weapon, use a resource that constantly depletes unless you kill enemies) but practically it requires a very defensive playstyle. Disappointing, given how fun berserkers can be and how dull paladins always are. I couldn't find any immediate comments by Benli on how he expected the class to be played, but the skill-set suggests that "defensive" was not the intent. Oh, that reminds me: 3) everyone takes Rampage. Everyone. Yet it's a locked tree. I can understand the desire to limit the number of passive abilities in the early game, given Gloom, Cursed Form, and Fateful Aura. Still, if its really necessary to playing the class appropriately, make it available early on.

[Sirrocco]

- I can actually remember playing a non-rampaging Cursed and liking it a fair bit back in the day. I'm only starting to get back into things, so I haven't had a chance to play one recently - but when I do next play a Cursed (and I will) I suspect that I'll be neglecting it again. Rampage is by no means necessary to playing a Cursed.

- Having a lot of generic trees isn't a problem. It just means that you pick and choose to a degree. Honestly, I could wish that all of the classes had enough generic trees to make for some hard decisions.

Still, as noted, I *haven't* played recently. Guess I'll try to fire one up (dwarven, of course, both because I'm fond of dwarves in general and for the extra double-bonus suck I've heard about in the first dungeon) and see how it goes down.

[benli]

Cursed really was designed a long time ago (around Beta 6-8?) and hasn't gotten a lot of rebalancing. Based on a number of posts I have been working up some significant changes to test out. These are the "problems" I've been tring to solve:

1. Hate management (particulary in long single combat or long periods without combat).
2. Get rid of useless talents.
3. Stronger against single opponents/bosses. Especially the Dwarf start boss which I've given up all hope of a Cursed reliably defeating.
4. Better attack (less need for points in Combat Accuracy).
5. More tactics and mobility (to make combat more interesting).
6. Better defense/durability (preferrably using strong offense or mobility).
7. Too many generic points required.

These are the changes... Many of them I've implemented and they really help with the early game. Stalk and Dominate are probably the two most significant changes.

*ALL TALENTS*
No weapon type restrictions.
For hate-based effects using a cursed weapon adds a bonus (+2.5 effective hate level I think still capped at 10; dual weild splits that between weapons)

*CURSED FORM*
Unnatural Body
Unchanged except each cursed armor equiped restores 3% healing factor.
Seethe
Changed. Hate loss stops at low hate levels and you can gain back hate at very low levels.
Relentless
Unchanged.
Unfeeling
Changed. Sustained that gives a HP bonus at the cost of reduced maximum hate. Also considering a resist all that consumes hate quickly.

*SLAUGHTER*
Unchanged.

*ENDLESS HUNT*
Stalk
Passive. 2 consecutive turns hitting a foe begins stalking them for 40 turns or until dead. Increases attack and damage % based on a bonus level that goes up with consecutive turns striking or down if not striking. Only one foe can be stalked at a time and damage against others is reduced. Adds a hate per turn hit bonus (.05, .1, .15)
Preternatural Senses.
Unchanged except always see stalked prey in a range of 10.
Blindside
Unchanged except levels lower cooldown.
Harass Prey
Two weak harrasing attacks against adjacent stalked prey that reduces the damage they inflict by x% (up to a cumulative maximum of y%). Each attack that hits will put one talent on cooldown for up to z turns.

*STRIFE*
Dominate
Changed. Range 2; prevents movement for 4 turns and leaves them prone by reducing armor, defence and adding damage penetration. If at range 1, you get to attack while dominating.
Ruined Cut.
Unchanged but considering using Insidious Poison (prevents healing). Also considering a mechanic to "keep the wound open" by attacking them or add additional poison damage.
Bait
Unchanged.
Assail
Unchanged, but I'm thinking about a talent to replace it. Considering a melee range Force of Will attack.

*GLOOM*
Unchanged except you get a effectiveness bonus against stalked prey.

*RAMPAGE*
Unchanged

*FATEFUL AURA*
Unchanged (though it was changed after its first release). I'm considering making Cursed Touch level 5 turn off harmful curses. Also considering combining helpful and harmful effects into a single "ego" rather than randomly selecting two different "egos".

1. Get rid of useless talents.
Seethe, Enrage, and the old Stalk are gone.
2. Hate management (particulary in long single combat or long periods without combat)
Helped by Stalk and Seethe.
3. Stronger against single opponents/bosses. Especially the Dwarf start boss which I've given up all hope of a Cursed reliably defeating.
Endless Hunt now focuses on powerful opponents.
4. Better attack (less need for points in Combat Accuracy).
Stalk and Dominate make a big difference.
5. More tactics and mobility (to make combat more interesting).
Dominate's pinning effect adds some tactics. I'd still like something else though. Blindside cooldown reduction helps.
6. Better defense/durability (preferrably through strong offense or mobility).
Dominate's pinning effect, Harass Prey also helps. Unfeeling might be ok. This probably needs more work though. I'll think on it some more.
7. Too many generic points required.
Reducing the need for Combat Accuracy helps early on but melee-based Cursed needs generics and spell-based Doomed needs class skills which makes it a little harder to balance. I'm considering making curses or something else a class tree.


I'll need to play with these a lot more to get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Any additional ideas would be helpful. I'm especially thinking about more movement and defense.

[bricks]

Those all look like great changes, benli. My only problem is Stalk. Investing a single point in it would radically change how Cursed can be played. I would say either make it a sustain instead of a passive skill; eliminate the damage penalty and only allow the "stalk" effect to apply once every X turns (X being of a moderate duration, say, 10 turns); or make sure the player starts with one point in Stalk so there is no heartbreak over investing in a talent that potentially would weaken a character (make the hard decision for us ).

My hate-on-hit w/ Gloom effects seems kind of silly now . If it was toned down (one-third or one-fourth of what I set it to) it might still have its uses; between the changes to Seethe and Stalk I think hate generation will be much less of an issue.

Oh, Ruined Cut could stand to have a new name, since it no longer requires an axe. Some other skills might be in the same boat.

What do you think about a tree focused on using a shield? Or having certain defensive skills benefit from using a shield? My Cursed would often use one simply for the early-game armor and defense bonuses, and to make one-handed axes more usable. I get the impression that Cursed might not really be meant to use shields, though.

Have you considered making one of the Doomed trees generic in return for changing either Cursed Form or Fateful Aura to a class tree? Primal Magic might be the best candidate, since it would bring the number of magic- and willpower-based trees back to two each, and two of its abilities are strictly utility.