To Respawn or not to Respawn....

[Thauctred]

Hi Folks,

Tried to find the main thread for respawning so that I could be up to speed on the state of the discussion, and failed. I hope it won't be taken too amiss if I ramble a little here.

If I gather correctly, monsters no longer respawn.

There are countless praises to sing for ToME, but one of the things that I love about it is that it acommodates vastly different gameplay styles. Not just in terms of the wealth of race / character classes, but in that it lets people choose differing strategies that make the game most enjoyable for them.

I think Jenova Chen's paper "Flow in Games" has a major insight, describing how Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment (DDA) can be done well in games. One of the key elements: give the player choices to make that allow them to ramp up or down the difficulty as best suits their play style and skill level.

For a key example of this, check out the game that went with his thesis: http://interactive.usc.edu/projects/cloud/flowing/
Before someone leaps to point it out - it's true that the monsters in "Flow" don't respawn. His thesis isn't on whether monsters should respawn in games, but is on the much broader topic of DDA.

One of the beautiful elements of DDA that has traditionally been a part of ToME is the monster respawn. Different players have their favourite hunting grounds, and if I want to wander into the mountains and hunt dragons, I can... or whatever type and difficulty monster I'm into fighting as I build my character. Because of the monster respawn, folks can take their time and develop their character if they choose - or they can traverse the quests as quickly as possible, trying to finish the plot.

It seems to me that by removing monster respawn, ToME is made a touch more linear and less of a "sandbox". Admittedly, I'm a sucker for sandbox games, so there's my bias. But it seems to me that there are some major nuances of play that are lost by removing respawn.

I'm wondering what the main purposes of taking it out are?
- Is it to stop scumming?
- Is it to help keep the character moving through the plot?

I've got more to say on the whole respawn thing, but perhaps I'll wait and see what some of the responses are.

[tiger_eye]

Thanks for the well-written posts and the links, Thauctred! I don't think monster respawning has been discussed to the extent that you appear to be looking for, so hopefully this thread will fill that gap.

I just want to point out that there is a way to scum for XP and items that is more than just doing side quests and optional zones. ToME has farportal zones! These are randomly generated zones with a random unique that carries a random artifact. These zones are much for fun--for me at least--than "grindy" scumming in places you have already explored, but it requires that you complete a certain quest first (usually around clvl 16 or so).

Some of your points could possibly be used to make farportal zones more fun and interesting to a wider audience. Perhaps the player could spend more fortress energy and choose one of these things for the farportal zone:

(1) Type of monsters (i.e., Greater Multihued Wyrms)
(2) Type of level (i.e., Caverns)
(3) Type of randart (i.e., light armor)
(4) perma-lit (oh, how I wish farportal zones could be perma-lit!)

[marvalis]

One possible solution would be to implement 'infinite' dungeons of different flavors (with no re-spawn, but with a portal system). For example, there would be a forest area, or a mountain map. You can keep going down for ever. At the start there is a shrine with a portal, and every few levels down there is a portal that you can trigger by finding it. The portals work both ways (up and down) and the levels could have interesting features (like shops and vaults and so on).

For example, you like the forest area's. On level 10 you find a small town with a shop, and on level 11 a portal. You use the rod of recall. When you come back later, you use the shrine portal on level 1 to go to lvl 11, and then you go to the shops on level 10. All of this is persistent with no re-spawn. The shrine portal could have an interface pop-up asking you to what level portal you want to go.

Just an idea.

[jenx]

I agree with the ideas in both posts. Character development is difficult with the current shops and no respawning. Getting the right gear is tedious and 99% of stuff is turned to hold which is then hard to spend. I love this game but this part is its worst aspect in my view.

[Thauctred]

One possible solution would be to implement 'infinite' dungeons of different flavors (with no re-spawn, but with a portal system). For example, there would be a forest area, or a mountain map. You can keep going down for ever. At the start there is a shrine with a portal, and every few levels down there is a portal that you can trigger by finding it. The portals work both ways (up and down) and the levels could have interesting features (like shops and vaults and so on).

For example, you like the forest area's. On level 10 you find a small town with a shop, and on level 11 a portal. You use the rod of recall. When you come back later, you use the shrine portal on level 1 to go to lvl 11, and then you go to the shops on level 10. All of this is persistent with no re-spawn. The shrine portal could have an interface pop-up asking you to what level portal you want to go.

Just an idea.

Infinite dungeons of different flavours would be great, but I'm not sure would solve the problem for me. I'm trying to think of how to best put it into words.

There's the whole Flow aspect, as mentioned above.

Then there's the piece about various playing styles: It's fun to decide to go off on a dragon hunting expedition, or what have you.

Another major piece that I haven't touched on yet, is the post-apocalyptic factor.... I've never liked it in games when after you've cleared areas you're left with barren wastelands bereft of life. Granted, in ToME 4+ you don't wander through the wilderness in the same way you used to, but it's a weird feeling traversing empty dungeons.

And I'm still trying to discern: What's the primary motivation for no respawn? Is it just about scumming? Or is there some other reason to avoid spawns?

Generally, it seems to me that if it is primarily about scumming, it may be better to not let the gameplay possibilities be limited in order to prevent one style of play that some find distasteful. (Sort of like punishing the class for one kid's bad behaviour). My general feel is that if some folks want to scum, what's the harm? If the issue is with potentially unfair comparisons between characters, make a respawn version whose scores don't go to the ladder - I'd sacrifice the bragging rights in exchange for the wider gaming options.

What are some of the other reasons that no respawn is a good choice? (I may be missing the point here).

[bio_hazard]

I like the no-respawn, since I often do parts of dungeons rather than clearing them all at once (for example, avoiding the last level if I'm not ready for a boss, or, if there is a separate quest that one gets to from the last level like in Trollmire or Old Forest). I'd much rather be able to resume my progress with a few clicks on the mini-map than have to wade through run-interrupting baddies when revisit these dungeons.

I can see how having more grind options would be nice, but I like how it is set up now, where the emphasis is going to new places.

That said, respawn would make the ingredients quests a lot easier, and would give more flexibility in getting characters powerful enough to tackle new areas for novice players (like me).

If respawn in some capacity were to be added, I have a couple of suggestions.

1- have limited respawn based on random quests you get in town. These could be limited to dungeons where you've already killed the boss. "We hear there are outlaws setting up camp in the Trollmire." "Villagers report seeing frightening undead emerging from the Scintillating Caves. Can you help?" If you don't take the quests, the new monsters don't spawn.

2- If there is general respawn, please allow the Rod of Recall to tele you back to the lowest level you've been to in a given dungeon (like the old Thunderlords/reset recall scrolls in Tome2).

[bricks]

I do like the idea of periodic respawns with associated quests or progress in the game, just like the backup guardians. I actually expected the zones with the backup guardians to be repopulated. Normal respawning just doesn't seem appropriate, and I suspect it would result in some zones becoming unplayable simply due to the build-up of monsters difficult for a particular class (especially if the levels of the monsters scaled). It was one of the biggest issues I had with ADOM, although that was an extreme case.

[marvalis]

ADOM had some code where monsters got really hard after killing a large amount, and also some op summoners that can be quite annoying without invisibility or other spells. Quicklings at very high danger levels (kings/queens) would be insanely overpowered too.

Would be nice if after the pride boss is killed, the area would re-spawn with animals if you came back later (and maybe a few orcs but not many). Killing certain bosses could stop spawning, like for example killing the vampire lord would stop all undead spawning in the tower. Seems like there is possibility for variation.

[Canderel]

Thauctred, I am not sure everyone is hearing your plight...

We don't know why the decision was made. We can talk about the net result of it, and how we experience it, but the reason Darkgod made the call, only he will know.

That being said, the reason I *think* he did it is indeed to "push" you ahead, to get the game moving. I must say that the east, although initially reallllly tough, is a fascinating place, and the end game is rich, especially as your learn about the Orc race, their dreams, their anguishes, their heroes, and their current state of affairs. And personally I enjoyed that a lot and I hope that more people will get the joy out of it.

However, I think that everyone needs to get joy out of the game they way they like to get joy out of the game. And it seems to me that you enjoy having the freedom to go dragon hunting, to "live" in the world, instead of being "pushed" around in the world. And that makes sense to me... I can understand that.