My alchemist is working on a typical alchemist ultimate item and has raised the pval to 26 (for +26 speed/attacks/etc), artifacted the item and allowed it to continue gaining experience.
When I was planning the item, I had thought that a stack of troll raw meats would be good enough for the multiply life flag, but it turns out I'll need 26 troll corpses. This is more trolls than inventory slots.
Is there some way to stack corpses?
I've tried hacking them down to minimum weight, but there is still some randomness to weight. I eventually got 2 corpses with the same displayed weight, but can't get them to stack. They've been *ID*'d in case that might make a difference.
Can corpses stack?
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I gave up and simply added the flag to my +7 dwarven lantern of the magi. I've been playing this character for a month now and just want to finish the game and try something different. Currently making my way back up through the nether realm and wishing I had taken the time to make more scrolls of mass genocide.
Something I find odd, is that the Dwarven Lantern no longer has the magic map ability now that it got turned into an artifact.
The Void/Nether Realm could really use some sort of side quests or special levels to spice things up. The reward would be that all stairs down before Tiki are shafts down. Once you get Tiki, then down stairs are down stairs, but stairs up become shafts up.
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edit: a few hours later... I've finally won the ultimate ending. and I have no real desire to do it again.
It was with a Beorning alchemist. I seemed to miss an awful lot in the void. I definitely needed the extra 140% hit points. The stack of potions of Life I made was also useful. I had 38 attacks with +40 damage/hit from Tree roots. This meant I had to finish the battle with the leveled nightwalkers/crawlers since I was rooted to the stairs when Melkor was defeated. They seemed to have as many hitpoints as he did.
The handmade artifacts didn't seem like overkill once I entered the void.
Something I find odd, is that the Dwarven Lantern no longer has the magic map ability now that it got turned into an artifact.
The Void/Nether Realm could really use some sort of side quests or special levels to spice things up. The reward would be that all stairs down before Tiki are shafts down. Once you get Tiki, then down stairs are down stairs, but stairs up become shafts up.
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edit: a few hours later... I've finally won the ultimate ending. and I have no real desire to do it again.
It was with a Beorning alchemist. I seemed to miss an awful lot in the void. I definitely needed the extra 140% hit points. The stack of potions of Life I made was also useful. I had 38 attacks with +40 damage/hit from Tree roots. This meant I had to finish the battle with the leveled nightwalkers/crawlers since I was rooted to the stairs when Melkor was defeated. They seemed to have as many hitpoints as he did.
The handmade artifacts didn't seem like overkill once I entered the void.
Congratulations! 
It seems to be a phenomenon of all rogue-likes - the beginning is great fun, but the further the game goes, the more it becomes boring tedium.
I am currently making a character with the plan do do it without genocide, summoning, stairscumming or LOS-breaking. Will see if it works
I know the feeling. But, spellcasters have a much easier time doing it (and thus, less bragging rights).I've finally won the ultimate ending. and I have no real desire to do it again.
It seems to be a phenomenon of all rogue-likes - the beginning is great fun, but the further the game goes, the more it becomes boring tedium.
I am currently making a character with the plan do do it without genocide, summoning, stairscumming or LOS-breaking. Will see if it works
My congratulations also!rakanishu wrote:Congratulations!
I know the feeling. But, spellcasters have a much easier time doing it (and thus, less bragging rights).I've finally won the ultimate ending. and I have no real desire to do it again.
It seems to be a phenomenon of all rogue-likes - the beginning is great fun, but the further the game goes, the more it becomes boring tedium.
I am currently making a character with the plan do do it without genocide, summoning, stairscumming or LOS-breaking. Will see if it works
I agree with rakanishu.
I used to love playing Nethack before they added the 100 or so levels of Hell. Actually I would characterize them as 100 levels of boredom. The Void and NR are much the same. A character that can take out Melkor can manage them, but it involves hours of tedium to get there, and one mistake gets you killed.
If Wastrel can get through under the conditions mentioned I will be impressed. The only characters I have taken into the Void are sorcerors who can cast Genocide. That makes it much easier. Summoning apparently makes it easier also. I usually stair-scum to find a small level so that I don't waste time looking for the stairs- this is less a character survival issue than a boredom issue.
Thanks for the congratulations.Yottle wrote:My congratulations also!rakanishu wrote:Congratulations!
I am currently making a character with the plan do do it without genocide, summoning, stairscumming or LOS-breaking. Will see if it works
If Wastrel can get through under the conditions mentioned I will be impressed. The only characters I have taken into the Void are sorcerors who can cast Genocide. That makes it much easier. Summoning apparently makes it easier also. I usually stair-scum to find a small level so that I don't waste time looking for the stairs- this is less a character survival issue than a boredom issue.
(and that would be Rakanishu doing the void with extra challenges)
I had planned to use Tree creation for LOS breaking, but it doesn't do anything in the void.
I had also planned on using a Runestone with Protection/Sphere carved into it to keep from getting surrounded by summoned monsters. That didn't work in combination with my super crown of the magi with +65 spell power (ie 100% failrate ?).
I had the rod of home summoning and lots of backup supplies in my home in Bree. Of course you start the void in Lothlorien...
So that left me with 7 scrolls of genocide, 16 scrolls of mass genocide, Flare, and lots of stair scumming. And lots of resting to recharge my adamantine rod of the istari of detection.
Looking into an ultimate ending for T3 I would suggest:
a) fewer levels (the void is ok, but the Nether realm takes forever)
b) more story (I knew I was supposed to dive the Nether Realm to get Tiki, but my character had no reason to know that -- at least I never encountered any in game information prior to already having the flame imperishable
c) side quests with chances to meet Eru, and be rewarded with things like corruption removal, super piety boosts, or whatever.
The Pacific-Ocean-of-Runes catches that with massive spell power, yes - have to check with a selection of mana costs, to see how low is necessary when the character becomes made of an even riper cheese.
Does make the date with Melkor less hurtful though ... whumph ! the Mediterranean - phase door to its shoreline - whumph ! the Caribbean
Does make the date with Melkor less hurtful though ... whumph ! the Mediterranean - phase door to its shoreline - whumph ! the Caribbean
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IckyThingBane
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Nice work Wastrel! I'm only surprised that a legendary tactician such as yourself hasn't had Melkor's head up on your wall before As you say, though, it's mind-numbingly tedious... definitely agree with all your comments re spicing it up a bit.
The guys I've had who were actually capable of making it down to Tiki found Melkor pretty straightforward. He's the kind of anticlimax that Morgoth is after struggling through Mt Doom, but then it must be hard to balance a single boss at these extreme levels of power. Also, I've only ever attempted the Void with characters who were barely able to walk under the weight of their own cheese - sorcs, antimagic possessors, genociding and summoning warriors, etc - I don't think I'd fare terribly well with a run-of-the-mill character.
My AM possessor made it through with 3.5 of Rakinishu's 4 conditions, but was unfortunately forced to stair-scum on the way down to Tiki, as he couldn't breathe.
As you say, though, it's mind-numbingly tedious... definitely agree with all your comments re spicing it up a bit.The guys I've had who were actually capable of making it down to Tiki found Melkor pretty straightforward. He's the kind of anticlimax that Morgoth is after struggling through Mt Doom, but then it must be hard to balance a single boss at these extreme levels of power. Also, I've only ever attempted the Void with characters who were barely able to walk under the weight of their own cheese - sorcs, antimagic possessors, genociding and summoning warriors, etc - I don't think I'd fare terribly well with a run-of-the-mill character.
My AM possessor made it through with 3.5 of Rakinishu's 4 conditions, but was unfortunately forced to stair-scum on the way down to Tiki, as he couldn't breathe.
Actually I've only attempted the void maybe 4 times. Most of my winners are actually too wimpy for the void.
The first time was simply dying from not knowing how to deal with the void.
The second time was with an antimagic character who also used traps and ironman rooms. Killed Tiki with a trap. Died from sanity loss when I picked a fight with an undead beholder that was just out of my anti-magic radius.
Third time was just to try it in the Watcher of the Water body. Couldn't breath of course, which eventually lead to death.
Fourth time was with the above character.
The first time was simply dying from not knowing how to deal with the void.
The second time was with an antimagic character who also used traps and ironman rooms. Killed Tiki with a trap. Died from sanity loss when I picked a fight with an undead beholder that was just out of my anti-magic radius.
Third time was just to try it in the Watcher of the Water body. Couldn't breath of course, which eventually lead to death.
Fourth time was with the above character.
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IckyThingBane
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I think that's another important point for Void-improvement. Unless you plan a Void *winner* from the start, most characters simply cannot make it through. There's no point playing a Touch of Death Necromancer or a bare-hand fighter through to Morgoth and then find you can't hit anything in the Void due to the massive to-hit requirement.Wastrel wrote:Actually I've only attempted the void maybe 4 times. Most of my winners are actually too wimpy for the void.
It should be winnable for a wider variety of characters, without being made easier per se. Maybe monsters with more hp and lower to-hit requirements, or something like that.
Well that's more impressive than any of my *winners*, that's for sureWastrel wrote:]Killed Tiki with a trap.
Right now it is loaded against melee-type characters, but some other types have very little trouble. What would be interesting would be some more conditions that work against some of the tactics that currently work. I would want to see these implemented in different areas so that everyone had to pass through an area that was loaded against them. That would make it a bit less boring also.
The lack of genocide on the final level hurts sorcerors a little, but this could be expanded. The nether damage in the NR is also a problem for sorcerors, and if it was a worse it would be a major issue. An area/quest where all pets go hostile would penalize summoners, no teleport areas would neutralize the mindcrafter sea of portal cheese and the Probability Travel dance, and so on. There would need to be a way to counter the sea o' runes strategy- maybe Melkor could breathe something that destroys them.
The lack of genocide on the final level hurts sorcerors a little, but this could be expanded. The nether damage in the NR is also a problem for sorcerors, and if it was a worse it would be a major issue. An area/quest where all pets go hostile would penalize summoners, no teleport areas would neutralize the mindcrafter sea of portal cheese and the Probability Travel dance, and so on. There would need to be a way to counter the sea o' runes strategy- maybe Melkor could breathe something that destroys them.
I'd just as soon see the Nether Realms done away with entirely. I've never actually *gotten* to them, but the descriptions I've read seem to indicate that they break the Tolkienian flavor of the game entirely, and they seem to turn that part of the game into tedium from what others say about playing them.
Now, that's just my $0.02, and probably not worth much more than that since I've never been there...
Now, that's just my $0.02, and probably not worth much more than that since I've never been there...
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IckyThingBane
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The Nether Realm as opposed to The Void, yes - its function as a source of the Flame could be carried by a special level in The Void, though such would need to be carefully arranged to avoid making it a filter which lets through very specific classes or equipment. Another accidental function at present is 'weird to combat weird' - it's weird enough that there are "towns" in the NR, but then weirder still that after entering The Void you can pop back home for stuff at will. Maybe something along the lines of "as you cross the threshold, Galadriel reaches into your pack for the Great Rod of Home Summoning" would do the job
The latter could maybe be patched in for 2.3.6 but a major change of scenery is unlikely, the folk have bigger fish to fry.
The latter could maybe be patched in for 2.3.6 but a major change of scenery is unlikely, the folk have bigger fish to fry.