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The Archmage · #31 Post by **The Archmage** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 2:45 pm

As I follow this discussion I get more and more convinced of that using backups isn't very well liked. Because of that I want to declare why i make (and will further make) use of them:
For some reasons (especially: You turn into an unthinking vegetable.) I believe that this game cannot be won without savescumming. I might be wrong but I'm sure that *never* ever anyone did (sorry to that lonely one who did but you haven't any evidence of it). There is *ALWAYS* something that kills you for some stupid reason.
A question: For example, when you play Tomb Raider, do you start from the beginning again just because you died???
Perhaps its honorable but from my point of view its (sorry) some kind of stupid.

Sly · #32 Post by **Sly** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:12 pm

I had to disagree a bit.

I have used beckups, and I still use them for some reasons, mostly for testing purpose : when I encounter something new (what happen less and less often

) I backup and test (for exemple the new home quests ..., or my one and only ever found staff of wishing).
But my only post is my only winner without using a backup ( Crybard, a Dunadan Sorceror), I have a Unbeliever winner, but he died stupidly (litteraly : turned into a vegetable by a bunch of skull drudjs

) and were backuped, but never posted. I now use them less and less (dead characters stay dead, it's the meaning of this game).

So, I agree with Atarlost, making a backup and not using it is not cheating, it's preventing (I would have lost a char whith the vanishing staircase of the Wight Quest ... the char is cheated but I can still play with it)

Lord Dimwit · #33 Post by **Lord Dimwit** » Thu Jul 10, 2003 9:41 pm

The Archmage wrote: I believe that this game cannot be won without savescumming.

Don't lose hope, my little lamb. Some day you'll stray back to the flock. The grass is always greener over here, anyway.

ToME is indeed beatable. And I don't think it's like those games where you die every ten seconds no matter how good you are. It would be absurd, I agree, to play something like Super Mario Brothers and restart the game whenever you fall down a pit or run into one of those frowny-faced mushrooms. But the way I see it, you spend a lot of time in ToME erecting barriers against quick and easy death, and your adventuring from that point onward tests those barriers to their limits.

The Archmage · #34 Post by **The Archmage** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 12:54 pm

Lord Dimwit wrote: Don't lose hope, my little lamb.

First of all, I'm not your little lamb.
Second: I added a poll to this topic to see if I'm allone with my savescumming. As for now (1;13) it seems I am. So I started thinking about playing ToME without, and the only point I see is: "How far can I get with just one life?" Sounds kind of interesting but actually I would gain the power of *Slay PC* if a high leveled character of mine completely dies just because i didn't notice that there's a trap on the floor or something.
Third: If you really play without a backup it must take a few weeks to get a high leveled char (high leveled=40+), and I don't want to spend so much time on just one character. So it must take years (I avoid imagening how many) to have a character finally beat Morgoth. (Which I never did WITH savescumming, cos I couldn't find the One Ring. Anyway, where is it to find?)
And at least: I have more fun with the game to max out many chars than to beat the game with just one char and one life.

Wastrel · #35 Post by **Wastrel** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:40 pm

Well, I'd reply to your poll, but I think that's a registered user thing. So any poll is definitely skewed against lurkers and unregistered types.

The game has a different feel to it if you play with out backups. It also requires a different playing style. If you don't enjoy the game that way, then play with backups.

I, for one, don't care either way.

If I'm playing without backups, I do find the character ranking after a death more interesting. With backups, its just the same characters over and over.

The Archmage · #36 Post by **The Archmage** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:46 pm

For some reason there is no score list available in my download of 221. When I die it asks: "Dumb the screen? [(y)es/(n)o]" and then: "No score list available."

Tachyon · #37 Post by **Tachyon** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 1:54 pm

First of all, I'm not your little lamb.

Can't you take a joke? You know he was kidding about that, don't you?

The Archmage · #38 Post by **The Archmage** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 2:02 pm

Hmmm... Maybe I have to apologize.
I learned english just by doing, and a bit in school. So I sometimes take things to seriously by false translation, as I sometimes have less words to say what I really want to say.
Well then, "sorry"

fearoffours · #39 Post by **fearoffours** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:44 pm

Call me gullible if you like, but I believe all of the winners on rgra who claim not to have used backups in their winning posts. Persona;lly IMHO it;s not a legit win if you used a backup.

Angband (and it;s variants) are not quick fix games. The idea is to get into your character, much like an RPG. At least the way I play them. My characters take a while to get to a decent level, and I can never claim to having gotten higher than level 45. In fact even when I did use backup savefiles I always got boreed by the time I was at level 30 and started a new character - there's a definite thrill in knowiung you got a character so far without dieing! After all, how many lives have you got? (in real life I mean!)

The fact that ut CAN take weeks to beat the game is part of the attraction. Though some of the more top players I believe have beaten Vanilla in a surprisingly few number of turns. (I'll get back toy ou on how many after I;ve searched the newsgroup/had a word on irc!).

Don;t feel victimised about your use of savefiles, but please do mention them if you ever do post a winner

Neil · #40 Post by **Neil** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:07 pm

That's why I like ToME. ToME, unlike Angband, doesn't make you spend hours searching for scrolls of Teleportation, days killing pathetic little monsters in the hopes of finding a Dagger of Acid (+2, +1), and later make you spend weeks stuck a third of the way through the dungeon begging for a Ring of Poison Resistance.

ToME is a faster game. Not easier, I don't think, but faster. It's not as disappointing to die because it doesn't take that long to get back to having a decently powered character. At least, once you're decently good at the game, you can get to clvl 20 in 20-30 minutes. :-)

Wastrel · #41 Post by **Wastrel** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 7:35 pm

Yes, ToME is definitely faster than Vanilla. But what amazed me when I started playing was how common *Identify* scrolls were. I remember constantly resting on level 1, while hoping that the black market would have a *Identify* scroll so that I could find out if any the ego armor/weapons I had found with random abilities were worth keeping.

The Archmage · #42 Post by **The Archmage** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:23 pm

fearoffours wrote:Don;t feel victimised about your use of savefiles, but please do mention them if you ever do post a winner

Of course.
Anyway, where is the One Ring? Is it simply be found like any other artifact or in a certain dungeon?

Tachyon · #43 Post by **Tachyon** » Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:51 pm

/*SPOILER*/

There are several dungeon bosses that may carry the one ring: Ar-pharazon in Numenor, Feagwath in the Paths of the Dead, Shelob in Cirith Ungol, and Glaurung in Erebor. From my experience, Glaurung has it most often in 2.2.1. Also, Sauron may have it, but you should try these bosses first, 'cause Sauron is a hell of a lot harder than them.

If it is on Sauron, he may not drop it the first time you kill him, or the second, or the third - if he has it, he's got a 1-in-3 chance of dropping it each time he is killed. If he doesn't drop the ring the first time, just regenerate the level by going up and down a flight of stairs, and fight him again.

The Archmage · #44 Post by **The Archmage** » Sat Jul 12, 2003 1:51 pm

Thanks.

Sly · #45 Post by **Sly** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:22 am

I have played a lot of chararcters since Pernangband, most of them were designed for win. Finally, 3 of them went winners (a Sorceror, an Alchemist and an Unbeliever), but only one without savefile (the Sorceror), so I only posted him ( http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=993 ).
Now that I won, I'm trying to win (or at least go as far as possible) with themed chars (Neil gave me this idea with is Olorin char ( http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=757 )) :

- a Skeleton Rohan Knight Polearm Master with a Scythe (and a bit of Anti-magic) (no one will ever escape him, and he comes for you

- a Corupted Maia Dark Priest, named Gothmog (too bad maia can't follow a God

- a Dwark Alchemist, named Flint (from Ed Greenwood novels)

I'll play more each time I come up with a good idea[/quote]

ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

ever-filled wallet

Do you make use of back-ups?