I've been doing some thinking recently, about the nature of roguelikes in general, and the way I want Annals of Ea to go in the future, and this is (partly) the result, though I have by no means decided on anything yet.
I used to think of myself more as a gamist, but have been exhibiting some worryingly simulationist tendencies recently. I just thought I'd better warn you...
Firstly, I have been wondering whether there is a better way of doing things. The wilderness is at the moment merely a side feature of the game; something to distract the player on occasion, and something to be used as a device for power-levelling, and to rant about when ambushed with a lvl 2 character on a deep water square. All these things I see as a problem...
While I willingly admit that the game *is* by its very nature a dungeon game, with the "point" ultimately to descend to the depths and wipe out the Enemy, I'm not sure that this is necessarily only what it should be.
Why then, would the wilderness be there, if it did not add something to the game? Personally, I would prefer it to be more than a tool for power-levelling, and more of an added feature. Something of interest, and if not vital, at least very useful to the game as a whole, and more than in the way of occasionally going in search of Temples.
There are many different ways of dealing with this from the point of view of the developer. Quests can be added, and features of interest, but in the end, it comes down to the player: you.
Would you want to play a game with more wilderness or less, or none at all? Even were you forced to travel without wilderness mode to find cities and other features...
So: the ultimate point of this, is to find your opinion. What, in relation to the wilderness would you like to see more of, and what would you like to see less of. Please feel free to rant, or moan, or even take the thread to the level of a lively debate.
The poll is there simply as an aid to discussion. Use it or not as you wish.
Thanks for reading this far, -- TheFalcon.
Wilderness travel
Moderator: Moderator
Wilderness travel
Last edited by Falconis on Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Cosmic Gerbil
- Spiderkin
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Definately not no wilderness travel. I have played on some roguelikes where you can't enter wilderness mode at all, and you have to travel to other towns not knowing where to go. Well, that may just be me who is useless at roguelikes 
, but I always get lost and usually die. I like the wilderness because its quick to travel in.
, but I always get lost and usually die. I like the wilderness because its quick to travel in.Something like more random quests in the wildnerness. Not FF, but more Search and Rescue, and the like. Perhaps storm the castle....
Random camps in the wilderness, like random towns in the dungeon, but in the wilderness.
Huts, where you can pay *huge* amount of cash for training to increase skills.
Perhaps some special monsters that are much bigger and tougher than those in the dungeon.
Vehicles, like boats would be nice.
Increasing the actual size of the wilderness map would be great. Something like the Ultima V-sized map, which is about 3-4 times the size of the tome map. This would require the player to adequately prepare before they journeyed, and would also make vehicles useful and needed.
While on the subject, Watchtowers and lighthouses would make sense.
A lot of this would probably have to be C coded....
Random camps in the wilderness, like random towns in the dungeon, but in the wilderness.
Huts, where you can pay *huge* amount of cash for training to increase skills.
Perhaps some special monsters that are much bigger and tougher than those in the dungeon.
Vehicles, like boats would be nice.
Increasing the actual size of the wilderness map would be great. Something like the Ultima V-sized map, which is about 3-4 times the size of the tome map. This would require the player to adequately prepare before they journeyed, and would also make vehicles useful and needed.
While on the subject, Watchtowers and lighthouses would make sense.
A lot of this would probably have to be C coded....
As far as I know, all of what you have suggested I could do with lua, and a lot of it is planned for Annals already, and one of them is already semi-implemented in a discrete kind of way... 
I suspected that having a bigger wilderness map might well be something people suggested...
but I agree that it is perhaps one of the best ways, in combination with the vehicles and added interest of making the wilderness workable.
Hmm, getting lost is something to bear in mind. Trouble is, I rarely play now other than testing my shiny new stuff, so I tend to forget about the fact that other people don't know where stuff is.
I have to keep myself from pressing ctrl-a, space, y, e, 118(x6), hold down 9 and press enter (bothx2) then hold space, then press backspace(x3) then press 9(x3) then enter, each time I start a new character. I also have to scold myself for attempting to press ctrl-a,w at each down staircase. (*headdesk*)
Thanks for the response, from both of you.
I suspected that having a bigger wilderness map might well be something people suggested...
but I agree that it is perhaps one of the best ways, in combination with the vehicles and added interest of making the wilderness workable.Hmm, getting lost is something to bear in mind. Trouble is, I rarely play now other than testing my shiny new stuff, so I tend to forget about the fact that other people don't know where stuff is.
I have to keep myself from pressing ctrl-a, space, y, e, 118(x6), hold down 9 and press enter (bothx2) then hold space, then press backspace(x3) then press 9(x3) then enter, each time I start a new character. I also have to scold myself for attempting to press ctrl-a,w at each down staircase. (*headdesk*)
Thanks for the response, from both of you.
Last edited by Falconis on Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I think the most important thing is that travel from place A to place B is not made more annoying than it is. Things like having to fight random encounters every time get old quickly. If you make the map bigger make the player use less food and oil per square, and you might as well make the light radius bigger so that it's not so easy to miss cities.
Take also into account that most wilderness is tactically boring. Dungeons make for a complex gameplay but open spaces allow only limited tactics. So if you have a lot of wilderness features, make at least some of them include walls.
Take also into account that most wilderness is tactically boring. Dungeons make for a complex gameplay but open spaces allow only limited tactics. So if you have a lot of wilderness features, make at least some of them include walls.
Zothiqband -- still an Angband variant.
I have an idea to do with the way the player views the radius, which is now on the wiki.
Thanks also for the suggestions regarding oil and food. I do not yet know entirely how I am going to manage that, and it is certainly something that needs consideration, as does the amount of time that passes when the player moves from one square to another.
At the moment there is a large discrepancy between the number of turns out of wilderness travel mode and the number of turns in wilderness mode over one square. It doesn't of course help that squares are an awful lot longer than they are tall... (And of course this is caused in an attempt to compensate for the ASCII visuals being taller than they are wide, which is almost leading me towards graphics, instead of ASCII, except for the troubles with tiles being so small, and the problem of having to actually draw the things...) Anyway, that was all rather OT, but I feel it is at least related to the general situation.
Thanks also for the suggestions regarding oil and food. I do not yet know entirely how I am going to manage that, and it is certainly something that needs consideration, as does the amount of time that passes when the player moves from one square to another.
At the moment there is a large discrepancy between the number of turns out of wilderness travel mode and the number of turns in wilderness mode over one square. It doesn't of course help that squares are an awful lot longer than they are tall... (And of course this is caused in an attempt to compensate for the ASCII visuals being taller than they are wide, which is almost leading me towards graphics, instead of ASCII, except for the troubles with tiles being so small, and the problem of having to actually draw the things...) Anyway, that was all rather OT, but I feel it is at least related to the general situation.
I'd suggest running a modified level generator over every wilderness square. The modifications would be to (1) make the center square where you come out in ambushes always attacked to the open areas and (2) make edge passageways always connect to the same points at the edge of the map.
Hills could be mountains with dirt paths. Mountains could be impassable mountains with passable mountain paths. Forests are trees with grass or small tree paths. All of this is done in addition to the existing randomness.
There should also be "ambush regions" operating either as separate otherwise indistinguishable terrain types or as something more complicated that would, for example, create frequent troll ambushes in and around the troll fells north of rivendell, or frequent orc ambushes in the Anduin Vales, or dragon ambushes across the north, or orc/troll/nazgul ambushes in mordor. Make the world a dangerous place where traveling from bree to Lothlorien is not only tedious, but also dangerous.
Hills could be mountains with dirt paths. Mountains could be impassable mountains with passable mountain paths. Forests are trees with grass or small tree paths. All of this is done in addition to the existing randomness.
There should also be "ambush regions" operating either as separate otherwise indistinguishable terrain types or as something more complicated that would, for example, create frequent troll ambushes in and around the troll fells north of rivendell, or frequent orc ambushes in the Anduin Vales, or dragon ambushes across the north, or orc/troll/nazgul ambushes in mordor. Make the world a dangerous place where traveling from bree to Lothlorien is not only tedious, but also dangerous.
Digitochracy
n. 1. technocracy. 2. government by the numbers. 3. rule by people with the longest fingers.
n. 1. technocracy. 2. government by the numbers. 3. rule by people with the longest fingers.
I like the idea of having areas where ambushes are more common being in theme with the actual location, not just the terrain, and this is (I think) possible ATM. Some parts of the world should be dangerous at least. 
I would love to be able to run a customised generator over all the wilderness: putting in new features which didn't depend on squareness, such as mountains that *aren't* square, not to mention rivers and roads.
However, there are technical difficulties...
At the moment, I cannot find a way to get around the fact that the borders between wilderness squares seem unchangeable. I have a wild and reckless hack in the process of being thought out to cope with this, and need some time to be able to test it, but I don't know that I will be able to get it to work...
Anyway, thanks for the idea.
I would love to be able to run a customised generator over all the wilderness: putting in new features which didn't depend on squareness, such as mountains that *aren't* square, not to mention rivers and roads.
However, there are technical difficulties...
At the moment, I cannot find a way to get around the fact that the borders between wilderness squares seem unchangeable. I have a wild and reckless hack in the process of being thought out to cope with this, and need some time to be able to test it, but I don't know that I will be able to get it to work...Anyway, thanks for the idea.
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ChaosMaker
- Wayist
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- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:47 pm
- Location: Sweden
I'm thinking this: one way to make it easier finding ones way around the world map might be stressing the maps a bit more.
First of all, they must be more understandible, by the time i had realized what they were good for I had already discovered a lot of the map by myself. The way I sugest this is done is by giving away a map and a hint to its usage with the first, or so, quest. Perhaps with some twist leading towards the next quest.
Other than that I like the ideas of a larger world map with vehicles as well as the changing radius and that.
Also, on ambushes, i think they are a bit to dangerous as they are now. I mean, i think they should be more based on the characters current skills. I didn't se the fellowship of the ring being ambushed by loads of creatures, each one six times tougher than themselves even in the begining of the first book (counting the ringwraiths as scripted battles of course ). Though i do think you are right in that there should be some areas more dangerous than others. You simply shouldn't be able to just walts into mordor at a whim.
That, of cource, brings us to a new point: lost temples. If certain areas are much more dangerous than others then the placement of the tempels should perhaps be controlled more closely so that a tenth level char. dosn't have to wander over half the map, throug extremely dangerous terrain.
Yea... that was all I think.
First of all, they must be more understandible, by the time i had realized what they were good for I had already discovered a lot of the map by myself. The way I sugest this is done is by giving away a map and a hint to its usage with the first, or so, quest. Perhaps with some twist leading towards the next quest.
Other than that I like the ideas of a larger world map with vehicles as well as the changing radius and that.
Also, on ambushes, i think they are a bit to dangerous as they are now. I mean, i think they should be more based on the characters current skills. I didn't se the fellowship of the ring being ambushed by loads of creatures, each one six times tougher than themselves even in the begining of the first book (counting the ringwraiths as scripted battles of course
). Though i do think you are right in that there should be some areas more dangerous than others. You simply shouldn't be able to just walts into mordor at a whim.That, of cource, brings us to a new point: lost temples. If certain areas are much more dangerous than others then the placement of the tempels should perhaps be controlled more closely so that a tenth level char. dosn't have to wander over half the map, throug extremely dangerous terrain.
Yea... that was all I think.
I'm glad you like the ideas so far.
I agree: maps do need to be sorted out, and I like the thought of making them more important for quests and such.
Also, thanks for bringing up the point about lost temples. It's certainly something that must be borne in mind, and something I had forgotten all about.
I agree: maps do need to be sorted out, and I like the thought of making them more important for quests and such.
Also, thanks for bringing up the point about lost temples. It's certainly something that must be borne in mind, and something I had forgotten all about.
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ChaosMaker
- Wayist
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:47 pm
- Location: Sweden
I have been playing Theme lately and like its handling of the wilderness much more than Tome.
1) The differing levels of ambushes mean that I have to pay attention when exploring the wilderness. In Tome, once I get to level 10 I can go anywhere except deep water.
It does make it very difficult to play priests, though. Maybe the quest could be limited to a certain distance from Bree proportional to its level. That would stop the problem of getting the first quest someplace in Mordor where you can't travel safely until you are level 30 or more.
2) The passes (the Morannon and Caradhras) are cute. There is one in Tome also, but the Theme version is better because it uses different terrain.
3) The secret towns that don't show up on the wilderness map are great. Unfortunately there is only one that I think is worth visiting, and that only once early on. Gondolin should certainly be hidden.
Another problem is that once you know where they are you can always find them. I think that it would be better if you knew that there was a town with a mining supply store somewhere in the area around the Lonely Mountain, but you had to look for it because it moved from game to game. (Actually I would put it in the Blue Mountains.)
A sorceror might think it was worthwhile trying to find a town with a forbidden library that was in the far east where the Blue Mages settled. A level 40 quest to get the map to the town would be a welcome change from scumming the Sandworm Lair for vaults or the Paths of the Dead for demiliches.
Maybe the quests for the maps to specific towns could be accessed in some of the regular town shops: the commons shop for the town with the mining supply shop, the library for the forbidden library, the weapons shop for the specialized weapon shops.
4) I think that the Map of Middle Earth should be eliminated.
1) The differing levels of ambushes mean that I have to pay attention when exploring the wilderness. In Tome, once I get to level 10 I can go anywhere except deep water.
It does make it very difficult to play priests, though. Maybe the quest could be limited to a certain distance from Bree proportional to its level. That would stop the problem of getting the first quest someplace in Mordor where you can't travel safely until you are level 30 or more.
2) The passes (the Morannon and Caradhras) are cute. There is one in Tome also, but the Theme version is better because it uses different terrain.
3) The secret towns that don't show up on the wilderness map are great. Unfortunately there is only one that I think is worth visiting, and that only once early on. Gondolin should certainly be hidden.
Another problem is that once you know where they are you can always find them. I think that it would be better if you knew that there was a town with a mining supply store somewhere in the area around the Lonely Mountain, but you had to look for it because it moved from game to game. (Actually I would put it in the Blue Mountains.)
A sorceror might think it was worthwhile trying to find a town with a forbidden library that was in the far east where the Blue Mages settled. A level 40 quest to get the map to the town would be a welcome change from scumming the Sandworm Lair for vaults or the Paths of the Dead for demiliches.
Maybe the quests for the maps to specific towns could be accessed in some of the regular town shops: the commons shop for the town with the mining supply shop, the library for the forbidden library, the weapons shop for the specialized weapon shops.
4) I think that the Map of Middle Earth should be eliminated.