Automatizer

[AnonymousHero]

Since I'm going to be "porting" the automatizer I thought I'd ask a few questions on how important the various features of it are to you.

Please rate the importance (to you) of the following features of the automatizer:

• Editable outside ToME.
• Editable inside ToME (aka. the "UI")
• Usable for multiple characters (aka. not tied to a single character)
• Availability of non-destruction rules (inscribe, pickup).
• Availability of complex selection criteria - - status, state, skill level, etc.
• Ability to add rules inside ToME (aka. from the "destroy object" menu)

To have a common scale let's just say from 0 to 5, where 0 means "doesn't matter at all" and 5 means "I would not play without this".

I've been doing initial work on porting, but it's a bit of a mess trying to do a straight port. Right now, I'm thinking that I could save a lot of effort by just defining a simple language for the automatizer (using Boost.Spirit to parse it, of course) and letting users configure it using an external editor. (Maybe as a pref file or something.)

The UI for the automatizer was never that good anyway. IMO it was always a bit of a pain trying to build complex rules using it, and I always ended up using an XML editor.

What are your experiences?

EDIT: I fail at lists (or BBcode fails at them).

[AnonymousHero]

Here are my answers just in case anyone cares:

• Editable outside ToME: 5. I never found the in-game UI very usable except for simple renaming and such.
• Editable inside ToME (aka. the "UI"): 1. I do occasionally need this when I've messed up while adding a rule on the "destroy object" menu or to rename rules.
• Usable for multiple characters (aka. not tied to a single character): 0. Tried to do this, but found it was too messy and my characters are to diverse to really share many rules anyway. (I tend to play Mages/Sorcerers and Antimagic characters most.). What I always end up doing is having a "base" file containing useless/cursed potions and scrolls and just copying that when starting a new character.
• Availability of non-destruction rules (inscribe, pickup): 1. Never used them, but I can see a use if you're playing an archer or thrower. However, IIRC an inscription can already provide most of the functionality. (I may be wrong on this, so please do correct me if so.)
• Availability of complex selection criteria: 1. The only uses I've found so far are: a) Destroying empty chests, and b) Trying to implement level-dependent destruction of {average,good} objects. What I tend to do instead of b) is to just start auto-destroying everything that's not an artifact by destroying everything by TVAL at the point where egos become uninsteresting. I find that the level at which egos become uninteresting is very game-dependent (think Ironman rooms versus 'regular') and so I tend to just destroy families (tval) manually and "recording" it using ($).
• Ability to add rules inside ToME (aka. from the "destroy object" menu): 5. Crucial since I don't tend to have a huge pre-built ruleset and instead adapt during game play.

(EDIT: Grammer and spellink)

[Yottle]

[*]Editable outside ToME.

5 Important, since the in-game editing is pretty poor.

[*]Editable inside ToME (aka. the "UI")

2 I use it for minor tweaks and temporary changes.

[*]Usable for multiple characters (aka. not tied to a single character)

5 Very important- I have a standard file that I always use.

[*]Availability of non-destruction rules (inscribe, pickup)

2 I use inscribe but not pickup.
.

[*]Availability of complex selection criteria - - status, state, skill level, etc.

3 I use these lots. For example, I destroy weapons/armor based on its state and my character level. At low levels I keep any non-cursed stuff to sell; at high levels I destroy everything.

[*]Ability to add rules inside ToME (aka. from the "destroy object" menu)[/list]

1 I use this, but an external XML editable file is fine. The main use is to generate rules for analysis outside so that I know what the exact syntax is. A decent help file and some examples would make this unnecessary.

To have a common scale let's just say from 0 to 5, where 0 means "doesn't matter at all" and 5 means "I would not play without this".

I've been doing initial work on porting, but it's a bit of a mess trying to do a straight port. Right now, I'm thinking that I could save a lot of effort by just defining a simple language for the automatizer (using Boost.Spirit to parse it, of course) and letting users configure it using an external editor. (Maybe as a pref file or something.)

A pref file would be fine with me.

The UI for the automatizer was never that good anyway. IMO it was always a bit of a pain trying to build complex rules using it, and I always ended up using an XML editor.

I usually try stuff out inside the game to see if it works then do the serious editing outside using an XML editor.

[madmonk]

I use inscribe and pickup.

[ggoDeye]

I've been playing ToME on and off for ~3 years now, semi-serious. I've had 5 characters make it to level 50, but have never won. Stupid Mt. Doom and The Crypt... I use the automatizer extensively, and primarily from the "K" destroy object rule command (non-roguelike).

Please rate the importance (to you) of the following features of the automatizer:

• Editable outside ToME.

2 or 5. 2 if great in-game UI is implemented, and 5 if not.

[*]Editable inside ToME (aka. the "UI")

5. I'm not sure what my problem is, but I've never been able to add clauses in game in any 2.x version. Had to learn my first programing syntax and edit in notepad to use properly. It was a great learning experience, but I suspect that I'm more technically inclined then most players.

[*]Usable for multiple characters (aka. not tied to a single character)

3. I currently just create & modify a new .atm file for each character. Really doesn't take much time to do this in the appropriate lib file

[*]Availability of non-destruction rules (inscribe, pickup).

4. Not a game breaker if these choices don't make it in, but including a "pickup" rule will personally decrease my (very) tedious inventory management time by ~25% in the mid to late game.

[*]Availability of complex selection criteria - - status, state, skill level, etc.

5. I wouldn't bother implementing the automatizer without the listed criteria. I believe that they are the core of the entire system.

[*]Ability to add rules inside ToME (aka. from the "destroy object" menu)[/list]

5. As stated earlier, and use the destroy rule command frequently. It would be enormously more helpful if it allowed for choices such as race, class, level, inventory, and equipment. Eventually, you could develop a single .atm file that works for all of you character playing styles with minimal editing when starting a new character.

[Yottle]

One thing that I think would be very useful would be to be able to set rules based on your $. I fake this using character level, but I would much rather have rules set to destroy most items when I am over some critical $ level.

[AnonymousHero]

That's an excellent idea!

[AnonymousHero]

Eventually, you could develop a single .atm file that works for all of you character playing styles with minimal editing when starting a new character.

I always started out with an ambition to do this, but in actual practice I always found it easier to just start from scratch(*) for every new character.

Anyway, I'm convinced that people do want/need complex criteria. I'm going to take a stab at implementing something reasonable this weekend. I'm currently leaning towards a solution where you can easily add to the file via the normal ($) menu when destroying objects, but any editing has to be done in a real editor. I don't think it's going to be XML though -- Unfortunately, I haven't found any XML data binding library which is usable under the Angband license (which ToME is under). The only thing I can think of would be Boost.PropertyMap (which supports reading/writing property maps as XML), but I think it would just end up being kind of weird to map the rules to property maps.

(*) Well, not quite. I always started out with a .atm file listing all the cursed potions and scrolls and stuff that almost no character would ever use.

[Yottle]

It would be nice if .atm files were additive like .prf files are. I can have put things I always use in player.prf (for example, map wait until healed to F1). My spell macros are in sorceror.prf, etc. Individual characters have particular macros if that is useful (like for thaumaturgists).

So non-alchemists would have essences destroyed, non-runemasters have runes destroyed, etc. Hobbits would have ! of restore con destroyed, etc. As far I can tell this does not currently work, although the instructions suggest that it should...