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More daemons?
Poll ended at Wed Feb 25, 2004 12:51 am
Ia! Ia! 64%  64%  [ 9 ]
Go to sleep. 36%  36%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 14
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 Post subject: New Demon Types
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 12:51 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:04 pm
Posts: 924
Location: A mountain range east of Bree
I think everyone knows my opinion of Bile Demons. The dumb red toads just sit in the dungeon, belching stupidly at you, until you kill them (provided that they don't kill you, which they very well may). I never thought gastric distress should make up such a large part of ToME, so I advise that Bile Demons be sent to one of Middle-Earth's toxic waste sites.

To compensate for this, I suggest that new demons be added. First off, the Shadow Wraiths (see locked-down Ideas thread) should go in. More demons should be added from other *bands - Axe, Clubber, and Warp Demons,to be specific. (Warp Demons should be made rather common in the Void and the Nether Realm.)

Also, try adding more (gasp!) AD&D demons. Try Chasme for high-level ones, give them some nasty attack effects like CLAW:HALLUCINATE, CLAW:CONFUSE, STING:PARALYZE, STING:POISON, or even BITE:INSANITY. Ultraloths (but please don't rename them in the fashion of Nycaloths/Nycadaemons, if you get my meaning) would be nasty opponents; they ought to be mass summoners, with psionic-type spells. Baubaus and other such intermediate-power demons should work as well.

By the way, I think some demon-specific AI should be implemented. I'd really like to see a well-organized demon army outside of pits and walls.* Plus, certain demons should have a summoning preference for only certain other types of demons. Horned Reapers for Barbazus, for example, and Barbazus (when getting their asses whupped) for Osyluths, Gelugons, and the occasional Horned Reaper - and more Barbazues... :twisted:

Edit: Comments? Suggestions? Anyone remember any other possibly useful demons?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:32 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 1303
Location: Finland
Even more demons? :shock: Someone's been eating too many mushrooms of hallucination. I like that idea of one type of demon summoning preference. To me demons are not that familiar. Of course I know all the usual, but there are those that I can't tell what they are and what they do. A dog is nice animal since know that it bites and whips its tail. Bird flies and sings. Barbazu... summons demons? What I'm trying to say is that if there should be more enemies, they should be something more familiar. To me it is the same if there are mariliths, barbazus, nycadaemons or vrocks. Demons don't have any real-life counterpart, so they are boring.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:34 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:37 am
Posts: 222
Mayfair wrote:
To me demons are not that familiar. Of course I know all the usual, but there are those that I can't tell what they are and what they do. A dog is nice animal since know that it bites and whips its tail. Bird flies and sings. Barbazu... summons demons? What I'm trying to say is that if there should be more enemies, they should be something more familiar. To me it is the same if there are mariliths, barbazus, nycadaemons or vrocks. Demons don't have any real-life counterpart, so they are boring.

Well, a lot of the demonic creatures are simply AD&D borrowings with no basis in Tolkien. They could well be replaced with a more in-theme set of demonic creatures. In Sindarin, call them roeg (singular raug or rog) -- fallen spirits of different orders, and of greater or lesser power. Remember, Melkor and Sauron did not fall alone, and there were many lesser spirits who fell with them.

The least of the demonic roeg are creatures as much like natural animals as certain Maiar are like humans. They are corruptions of the animate spirit, and magically potent. The narrog, aewrog, and hurog -- the rat, bird, and dog demons -- are the very least of these, kept as familiar spirits by servitors of the Dark. Each can be found in a common variant as well as a fiery variant, which carries an aura of flame. These replace imps, quasits, and manes. They are not affected by weapons which slay natural animals.

The spider demons, spawn of Ungoliant, are one of the most feared orders of roeg. Shelob, greatest daughter of the ancient spider, is only the best-known. The ungorroeg (singular ungorrog) or spider demons, are lesser demonic spiders but still foully potent. Breeding of these in the wild with ordinary giant spiders gave rise to the cruel spiders of Mirkwood. An ordinary spider demon bears terrible poison in its bite. A helcungol or ice spider demon can poison and instantly slow a victim to a crawl, while the crackling naurungol can cause disfiguring burns at a touch.

The demons proper, or fallen Maiar, are mostly lesser in power than the famous balrog or power demon. All sport hideous demonic disfigurements of the humanoid form -- barbs, wings, horns. Many can project auras of magical force which harm any who come near them. (Yes, "storm" spells.) Greater demons also retain the power to summon their kin. The true demons are divided into three castes:

Warrior demons, or dagorroeg. Festooned with horns and fierce claws, these monstrous forms are the shock troops of Morgoth, known for their strength and fierce weapons. They tend to have fewer spells and more direct, forceful attacks than others of the true demons. Infamous indeed are the many-armed sererroeg or blood demons, female demons whose skin drips with blood, and who fight with three grim daggers apiece. (Yes, mariliths.)

Magic-using demons, or morgulroeg. Twisted elemental spirits, these creatures serve the Dark with perversions of the magics of nature. They often mastermind demonic forces, summoning their fellows to their aid before striking. All morgulroeg can surround themselves with a storm of deadly force to keep foes at a distance. (No, a morgulrog is not a "morgul being" for purposes of weapon shattering!)

Power demons, or balroeg. The greatest of the demons are in a class by themselves, potent in both magical might and sheer battle power. The fire balroeg are the most infamous of this kin, though balroeg of frost, acid, and other elements exist. The demon princes, lieutenants of Morgoth, are all of the order of power demons.


Last edited by Fubar Obfusco on Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:46 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: Virginia, USA
One request only: If more demons are added, please keep them in the Z option.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:57 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:22 pm
Posts: 1461
Location: Finland
I support more Tolkienish demons on the place of the D&D ones.

On the other hand, I think if the total numbers of the demons were increased, they should all be made more rare so that they wouldn't crowd out the other (and less annoying) monsters.

Greater demons are my nemesis.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:08 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
Posts: 3427
Location: Virginia, USA
I'm with that, Nerdanel. I played Z before I played ToME, so I've dealt with a LOT of demons in the past. Either Tolkien-ize the demons (whatever that means???) or leave them with the Z option. Though honestly, I would probably never turn that option on -- if I want Z, I'll play Z -- there's nothing quite like playing a CL50 Z char down at 4000' and messing about with pits of Z demons, wahoo :roll:

Then again, I haven't played Z in at least a year or so, so I guess that makes me a convert :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 5:48 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 7:30 pm
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Location: Nargothrond
I'm with Fubar. D&D demons are good for some D&D variant. We play the most in-Tolkien-theme game, so we need in-theme monsters to replace demons. Personally I'd see all Maiar and other spirits as 'demons', maybe calling it spirits instead of demons. Thus Balrogs, Wizards, Sauron, Morgoth and some yet unnamed beasts would fall in this cathegory.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:44 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 7:18 pm
Posts: 2438
Location: California (or sometimes Erebor)
Send them to Ingeborg for ToME Plus.

That's basically the split that's emerging. Arda/ToME will go more and more Tolkien-like with a reduction in power, while ToME Plus will go in the opposite direction, more or less. :-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:55 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:04 pm
Posts: 924
Location: A mountain range east of Bree
Great ideas, Fubar, forget I ever said anything about adding more AD&D demons...

Suggestion: make current Osyluths undead demons; boost up the power of the whatchamacallems (those weak demons with pincers), make them powerful Morgulroeg; and make current Gelugons into warrior-demons, with more spells than the usual ones (these would be platoon leaders).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:23 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 4:37 am
Posts: 222
Tachyon wrote:
Suggestion: make current Osyluths undead demons; boost up the power of the whatchamacallems (those weak demons with pincers), make them powerful Morgulroeg; and make current Gelugons into warrior-demons, with more spells than the usual ones (these would be platoon leaders).

Don't forget that monster modifiers can apply to demons as easily as they can to snaga.

A demon captain is one level higher, and can cast Demonic Howl.

A demon necrolyte is two levels higher, and can cast Corpse Explosion and Raise Dead.

A demon sorceror is two levels higher, and can cast bolt spells of two different elements, and ball of another.

A demon enforcer (or mistress for female demon breeds) is three levels higher, and can cast Discharge Minion.

A demon duke (or princess) is four levels higher, and can cast Demonic Howl, Discharge Minion, or Unholy Word.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:48 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:01 pm
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Location: Finland
That sounds good.. This way you would know which are more dangerous than others.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 1:50 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:04 pm
Posts: 924
Location: A mountain range east of Bree
Cool.

One gripe: new Mariliths should be sexless - they would better fit the "designed for killing" description then.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 4:19 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:53 am
Posts: 634
Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
Neil wrote:
Send them to Ingeborg for ToME Plus.

That's basically the split that's emerging. Arda/ToME will go more and more Tolkien-like with a reduction in power, while ToME Plus will go in the opposite direction, more or less. :-)


I happen to like some creatures and conventions that have become part of Roguelikes even if they're not strictly Tolkienian; in fact, I hope to keep many of the monsters and items that the Arda module will drop. (Not all of my changes involve power increases, though--I did tone down the abilities of some races and classes, and may continue to do so if enough players point out abusable situations.) Mindcraft will be gone in all forms; Lovecraftian monsters and the Sanity stat (which almost nothing else lowers) will be gone from T-Plus when version 3.0.0 of the main game engine appears. However, there will be an option to enable/disable Nordic-themed creatures and items: some of the former Z uniques should be flagged as NORDIC in that case, and some of my own write-ups would also get the flag.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:14 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:50 pm
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Location: Virginia, USA
Is there a thread or link someplace that describes the difference is between ToME and ToME Plus? Please?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2004 5:34 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:53 am
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
The big differences would take a whole web page to spell out, but you'll get some idea of the changes I've made so far by looking at the changelist on my private *band creations site--

http://angband.deloitteforums.com/t-plus/whatsnew.txt

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