ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
It is currently Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:17 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:53 am 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
Is there a reason for taking Earth/Augur specifically? The whole “smash walls” thing freaks me out. Stone Missiles comes with its own respen ability, while if you wanted to drop Temporal you could grab Fire and Wildfire, get nearly the same speed from Burning Wake/Harmony, and burn buffs off enemies/bad statuses off yourself. What am I not seeing?

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Last edited by Snarvid on Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:51 am 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 159
Pulverizing Auger works with the proc damage bonus from shields, Earthen Missiles doesn't.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:32 am 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
Huh. And is the general rule “beams yes, missiles no”, in which case Flame and Lightning from Mana Coil would benefit, or something else?

E: Also, if I wanted to try this on Madness, how the hell do you survive the opening dwarf mission? Swap Psi-fighting till later, start with Augmented Mobility, and float a ton of points in Skate?

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:34 pm 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Posts: 169
Starting madness area is easy, just let the npc do all the work lol

I made this exact character (minus tinkers since i didn't get to save one) on madness and got to dreadfell pretty much autoexploring the whole way until there


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:45 pm 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
Posts: 174
Snarvid wrote:
Huh. And is the general rule “beams yes, missiles no”, in which case Flame and Lightning from Mana Coil would benefit, or something else?


Yep. The reason it works this way is because these spells, when procced by shields, benefit from the shield's procs dam / acc because they proc from the shield and hit instantly, I think in the same calculation (but I haven't gone crawling the code for this, so you'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable or just take my word for it). But Earthen Missiles fires projectiles - multiple ones, even - and that messes with the formula. The shield doesn't remember that it spawned those projectiles, essentially, and they come out unscaled, because they haven't yet hit anything when the function call finishes, because they have travel time!

At least, that's the way that I understand it working. Point being, shield procced Earthen Missiles doesn't apply shield proc bonuses, but beams do, like you said.

_________________
Let slip the toast of war.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:01 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
In testing I can't notice the effect on Flame. Maybe because it's a DoT?

Does work on Lightning, but I don't find Tempest and Hurricane as sexy as Burning Wake and Cleansing Flame. Ah, well.

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:58 pm 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
Posts: 174
Did you try it after upgrading Flame to tl5 where it becomes a beam?

_________________
Let slip the toast of war.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:13 pm 
Offline
Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 1148
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
It becoming a beam just makes it apply the DoT in a line instead of in first person hit. It doesn’t benefit from acc bonuses, Lightning is nice, range 10 but is the lightning dam type so auger becomes the best since it’s phys and benefits from shield acc bonus too.

_________________
A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:22 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
I did upgrade it.

Although... hmm.

I wonder if the Lightning spell specific upgrades (daze->hurricane) from the Storm tree would apply to the Lightning generated by Mana Coil, but certainly the respen and +dam would.

Things I discovered in my DevMode testing:
- Hurricane does not damage the player

- the Lightning effect from Mana Coil benefits from Storm upgrades to the Lightning spell (daze chance/hurricane). Tested with Storm tree and firing Stone Missiles to proc Mana Coil.
- For some reason I'm autothrowing Darkfire everywhere. Is there something that does this?

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:26 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:46 pm
Posts: 366
black ring

(this has got to be my shortest post ever, though i guess not anymore after typing that :p)

_________________
I write guides and make addons too now, apparently

You can go here for a compilation of everything I wrote, plus some other important stuff!

Includes general guides (inscriptions, zone, prodigies), and class guides (Demo, Anorithil, Bulwark, Zerker, Sblade)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:16 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
Thanks! I was using the "strap up artifacts to give decent spellpower" approach without really paying attention to what I had, and it was making it hard to track what the heck was happening.

I suppose if you really hated walls you could go Demon Seeds and nab Corrosive Cone. That should benefit from the proc bonus, given that its instant damage, might grab you a lot of extra procs. (IIRC that’s one of the “grant you a talent” ones that has a chance to trigger off any hit, not just the weapon its on, and it won’t be limited to proccing off spell hits only.). In for an “I hate walls” penny, in for an “I hate walls” pound.

Edits: Cone does indeed seem to get the benefit from the proc bonus, which ends up being fairly significant but *really* melts walls. Also seems to trigger the Vimskill EQ penalty for each trigger, so you’d probably want to use Eldritch Stone early on in order to reset your EQ and bang out some damage.

Arcane Drone might be an alternative for the Lightning version of this build to ICCTW. Triggers off Eldritch Slam, which can lead to some significant damage even without much investment in weapon stats, and has nice synergy with Chain Lightning/Hurricane/Tempest for when enemies aren’t in melee range or you’d like to corner-snipe with Chain Lightning and you need an initial body to start the chain.

I will try an Air/Storm/Demon Seed version of the arcane warden and see how Cone/Lightning pans out vs. Coil/Lightning (latter probably better and safer once you can get Thunderstorm online and sustainable via mana on crit).

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:31 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
Here's what I've learned, after dying on a roguelike run due to nothing be able to hurt me for 20+ levels followed by getting cocky in the final fight and trying to keep the Paladin alive instead of Rocket Booting around closing portals as is my usual wont (hubris is my most reliable downfall):

I couldn't test Arcane Drone, never having played on Insane Roguelike particularly far before, and thus didn't qualify for the unlock (the lore area of the fortress always hangs my game). ICCTW worked great with Hardened Core and PES. Flexible combat might have been fun for more procs, but I don't know if it triggers off Shards and it doesn't trigger off Beyond the Flesh.

Corrosive Cone and Mana Coil both hit pretty hard from your proc bonus, with Cone providing more reliable high damage due to Lightning's spikiness. Note that like all seeds and tinkers, you can swap them in and out as a 0-turn action that will put any activated abilities on the items on cooldown, so the choice isn't either/or but "when is it worth the trouble of swapping?"

Cone triggers off melee crits, fires a nice wide 4 range cone, and dissolves walls, which is normally fine but once in a while really, really bad. Particularly good uses seem to me to be:
- Using in conjunction with an Uruivellas shield seed, which triggers Battle Call, and then following up with Eldritch Slam. Enemies will be nicely clustered around you and you're likely to trigger one or more cones spreading out in radial fashion through the crowd.
- Swapping in during fights with mage hunters who disrupt your mana and turn off Arcane Combat, in order to provide you with solid damage without use of sustains or resources.
- As a go-to between getting significant melee crit and durability and getting Thunderstorm up and running with mana-on-crit items.
- I did have to treat Eldritch Stone to the "auto-use when no enemies are visible" treatment, similar to Sun Paladin and Barrier, in order to manage my EQ, as it seems to rack up your EQ due to being a Demonologist skill even though it consumes no vim

Mana Coil's Lightning strikes trigger off any spell hits and can proc your Tempest/Hurricane combo, so they:
- work exceptionally nicely with Thunderstorm (you can easily have a 100 damage Thunderstorm strike proc a 2k Lightning Bolt, and that's two chances to stick Hurricane on any survivors as well) as well as with Arcane Combat. I stuck with Thunderstorm 3 as a nice balance of manageable costs and multiple bolts/round, and found a pick and lamp with +mana on hit to let it be a net source of mana rather than a drain. With Suffuse Life, also a steady flow of incoming life even when you aren't in melee range.
- also benefit greatly from other items that have a chance to launch spells on spell hit (Void Orb, Black Ring, etc)
- The large range is a significant benefit, especially in hallway fights.

Other notes:
- As compared to Dado's version, Lightning Catcher is especially good on this build (as it provides +lightning damage as well as stat boosts and stun resistance), as is the Black Crown (as it increases your Demonic Pact to the point where you can unlock Forge Giant and Champion of Urh’Rok seeds, which include the bonkers Armored Leviathan skill which was a +60 boost to Strength and Magic for 7 or 8 turns endgame, the always sexy Flash Block, and the quality-of-life boosting +1 Vim/turn in case you, like me, keep forgetting to turn off Blood Shield).
- Starting with Fire Imp seed lets you delay putting more than 1 apiece in Lightning and Arcane Combat until around level 20, so you can focus on defenses and seed-building early.
- Suffuse Life is a big commitment, but I think it's worth it. Your damage output is already fantastic with Arcane Combat + Cone or Coil + proc bonus, but so much of your competence is tied up in sustains and it seems like the late game contains a very high number of Dreads and Mage Hunters who are happy to shred those. As long as you've got the ability to do damage, Suffuse Life will keep you standing.


Build (Hell's Stormwarden):

Starting skills: Air, Eldritch Shield, Magical Combat, Augmented Mobility, Earthen Power, Demonic Pact, Doom Shield

10: Demonic Strength
20: Tinkers
36: Storm
Wyrm: Inscription (or Fate Weaving if you want to squeeze points a little)

Stats: Magic > Strength > Cunning > Will. You might need to change the order of the first two around to get PES on time, I did not.

Earthen Power 1/1/1/1
Eldritch Strike 1/1/1/4
Doom Shield 3/5
Air 5/1/1/3
Storm 1/1/5/5
Demonic Pact 5/5/1/5
Magical Combat 5/5/2/1

Dwarf 1/2/1/1
Harmony 1
Physics 2/2/2
Chemistry 5/1/1
Augmented Mobility 1/5
Massive armor 5
Accuracy 5
Thick Skin 5
Demonic Strength 1/3/4/5

Fate Weaving version is 1/1/1/5, with all 6 available points pulled from chemistry and 2 from massive armor. I do like Unstoppable Force with Osmotic Shield and Suffuse Life, though, and having more status clears is never bad (I died from being pinned, of all things), and running Mental Stimulator instead of Headlamp and White Light Emitter is, I think, a slight net loss of power and a notable net loss of utility (in the form of a huge light radius).

Note: I'm happy to edit out the build and drop it in its own thread, can't really figure out the etiquette of whether it's too close to this build to warrant its own thread or too different from it and constitutes a threadjacking. I certainly never would have known the appropriate breakpoints for Stone Warden skills, or figured out what skills the shield proc damage worked on leading to me confidently taking Augmented Mobility over FEM, without this thread as a starting point.

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:13 pm 
Offline
Wayist

Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:30 pm
Posts: 29
I have several questions related to this build:

(1)Since you are going to use the Eldritch shield and doom shield (and also demon pact) simultaneously, how did you manage to keep the equilibrium?

(2)This build has huge damage while its mobility of seems to be a problem. Is it possible to get enough resistance penetration from equipment so we can skip the storm necessary? I may want to include one of step up, lightning speed, rampage or something else to allow an easy move.

Snarvid wrote:
Here's what I've learned, after dying on a roguelike run due to nothing be able to hurt me for 20+ levels followed by getting cocky in the final fight and trying to keep the Paladin alive instead of Rocket Booting around closing portals as is my usual wont (hubris is my most reliable downfall):

I couldn't test Arcane Drone, never having played on Insane Roguelike particularly far before, and thus didn't qualify for the unlock (the lore area of the fortress always hangs my game). ICCTW worked great with Hardened Core and PES. Flexible combat might have been fun for more procs, but I don't know if it triggers off Shards and it doesn't trigger off Beyond the Flesh.

Corrosive Cone and Mana Coil both hit pretty hard from your proc bonus, with Cone providing more reliable high damage due to Lightning's spikiness. Note that like all seeds and tinkers, you can swap them in and out as a 0-turn action that will put any activated abilities on the items on cooldown, so the choice isn't either/or but "when is it worth the trouble of swapping?"

Cone triggers off melee crits, fires a nice wide 4 range cone, and dissolves walls, which is normally fine but once in a while really, really bad. Particularly good uses seem to me to be:
- Using in conjunction with an Uruivellas shield seed, which triggers Battle Call, and then following up with Eldritch Slam. Enemies will be nicely clustered around you and you're likely to trigger one or more cones spreading out in radial fashion through the crowd.
- Swapping in during fights with mage hunters who disrupt your mana and turn off Arcane Combat, in order to provide you with solid damage without use of sustains or resources.
- As a go-to between getting significant melee crit and durability and getting Thunderstorm up and running with mana-on-crit items.
- I did have to treat Eldritch Stone to the "auto-use when no enemies are visible" treatment, similar to Sun Paladin and Barrier, in order to manage my EQ, as it seems to rack up your EQ due to being a Demonologist skill even though it consumes no vim

Mana Coil's Lightning strikes trigger off any spell hits and can proc your Tempest/Hurricane combo, so they:
- work exceptionally nicely with Thunderstorm (you can easily have a 100 damage Thunderstorm strike proc a 2k Lightning Bolt, and that's two chances to stick Hurricane on any survivors as well) as well as with Arcane Combat. I stuck with Thunderstorm 3 as a nice balance of manageable costs and multiple bolts/round, and found a pick and lamp with +mana on hit to let it be a net source of mana rather than a drain. With Suffuse Life, also a steady flow of incoming life even when you aren't in melee range.
- also benefit greatly from other items that have a chance to launch spells on spell hit (Void Orb, Black Ring, etc)
- The large range is a significant benefit, especially in hallway fights.

Other notes:
- As compared to Dado's version, Lightning Catcher is especially good on this build (as it provides +lightning damage as well as stat boosts and stun resistance), as is the Black Crown (as it increases your Demonic Pact to the point where you can unlock Forge Giant and Champion of Urh’Rok seeds, which include the bonkers Armored Leviathan skill which was a +60 boost to Strength and Magic for 7 or 8 turns endgame, the always sexy Flash Block, and the quality-of-life boosting +1 Vim/turn in case you, like me, keep forgetting to turn off Blood Shield).
- Starting with Fire Imp seed lets you delay putting more than 1 apiece in Lightning and Arcane Combat until around level 20, so you can focus on defenses and seed-building early.
- Suffuse Life is a big commitment, but I think it's worth it. Your damage output is already fantastic with Arcane Combat + Cone or Coil + proc bonus, but so much of your competence is tied up in sustains and it seems like the late game contains a very high number of Dreads and Mage Hunters who are happy to shred those. As long as you've got the ability to do damage, Suffuse Life will keep you standing.


Build (Hell's Stormwarden):

Starting skills: Air, Eldritch Shield, Magical Combat, Augmented Mobility, Earthen Power, Demonic Pact, Doom Shield

10: Demonic Strength
20: Tinkers
36: Storm
Wyrm: Inscription (or Fate Weaving if you want to squeeze points a little)

Stats: Magic > Strength > Cunning > Will. You might need to change the order of the first two around to get PES on time, I did not.

Earthen Power 1/1/1/1
Eldritch Strike 1/1/1/4
Doom Shield 3/5
Air 5/1/1/3
Storm 1/1/5/5
Demonic Pact 5/5/1/5
Magical Combat 5/5/2/1

Dwarf 1/2/1/1
Harmony 1
Physics 2/2/2
Chemistry 5/1/1
Augmented Mobility 1/5
Massive armor 5
Accuracy 5
Thick Skin 5
Demonic Strength 1/3/4/5

Fate Weaving version is 1/1/1/5, with all 6 available points pulled from chemistry and 2 from massive armor. I do like Unstoppable Force with Osmotic Shield and Suffuse Life, though, and having more status clears is never bad (I died from being pinned, of all things), and running Mental Stimulator instead of Headlamp and White Light Emitter is, I think, a slight net loss of power and a notable net loss of utility (in the form of a huge light radius).

Note: I'm happy to edit out the build and drop it in its own thread, can't really figure out the etiquette of whether it's too close to this build to warrant its own thread or too different from it and constitutes a threadjacking. I certainly never would have known the appropriate breakpoints for Stone Warden skills, or figured out what skills the shield proc damage worked on leading to me confidently taking Augmented Mobility over FEM, without this thread as a starting point.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:01 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 367
1. I was playing pretty lazy, so I treated Eldritch Stone the way Sun Paladins treat Barrier as a Positive energy generator - put it on auto-use whenever there were no enemies in sight. That way you start every fight with 0 EQ, and sometimes with a shield on. After I started using Track from an escort I sometimes shut it off when I saw there was a very tough fight ahead, but mostly it was a non-issue.

More optimal play would simply trigger Eldritch Stone at the end of every fight to start with 0. With PES you can handle quite a bit of EQ without failure, and most fights were over before I needed to re-use any of my Eldritch shield skills (and if not, PES gives you a pretty good shot of being able to use another Eldritch Stone without failing). When I replay for the win I’ll probably map it to the “Left” mouse gesture (“Right” always being dig) and try to work it into my post-fight muscle memory.

2. I had thought about Rampage back when I was trying to make Augur work for me (because of the physical damage boost, I was trying to kludge together an Augur “mastery tree” out of Matter and Rampage), but for me, Storm (specifically, the way that you can graft the Tempest/Hurricane interaction onto Arcane Combat) is the point of the build, the “cool-factor” that caught my attention. Would it work without it? Probably, but I wouldn’t enjoy it nearly as much. It’s worth noting that a significant chunk of the damage of Thunderstorm comes from Hurricane... if I understand it correctly, everyone within each radius 1 Thunderstorm hit has a 22.5% chance of being dazed, and each dazed person has a 55% chance to spawn a Hurricane which is going to do 10 turns of damage in radius 3. I don’t know if these in turn can proc Mana Coil or not.

I also think it’s a bit easier to gear for mobility than it is to stack 50 points of penetration - I had Wanderer’s Rest in the early game (I don’t see it in the wiki, but IIRC they add Augmented Mobility mastery +0.2, which made Quick as Thought better), but Rush boots or a blink cloak are pretty easy to find, and Steam Powered Boots make Rocket Boots a viable add-on (which I intended to use to run around to all the portals and shut them, but, again, got cocky).

In the build as is you could shuffle some generics around for TK leap if you like, or use Battle Call on one of your shields (Blood Shield is obligatory for at least one of your shields, but if you haven’t found Black Crown yet Battle Call is pretty decent as a secondary choice). I was happy most of the game just having a movement infusion and a single other mobility tool and mostly just walking people down while Thunderstorm chewed on them, but I did lose in the end, so take my advice with a grain of salt. (Or I should have kept Fiery Cleansing instead of going for the 20% global speed boost, at least until after I had used Fiery Cleansing - could always swap in the speed boost).

P.S. You’re a little bit at the mercy of RNG for this build, I didn’t find a Sapphire until I was through 75% of the Prides, and then I hopped into a Farportal to finally find one. Usually Briagh is good for a fistful of gems, or the shops, or something... but Corrosive Cone will work until you get that.

_________________
My class guides: Possessor, Oozemancer


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:37 pm 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Posts: 169
If you wanna make your own guide thread go ahead, I'm noone to impede you from doing that lol


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group