ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Good points.

135 raw spell save unwrapped is 525 raw spell save (20 + 40 + 60 + 80 + 100 + 120 + 15 * 7).

Your base 106-ish without fire stance comes out to be about 336.

Scaling up to be on par without fire stance (i.e. 50/50 odds) would take a multiplier of about 1.56. Call it 10% per point perhaps?

At more sane levels, say 50 scaled physical power (90 raw), a 10% boost is 9 physical power. So at 5/5 with the 1.3 scaling, in the normal came you're looking at a modest boost of 13.5 physical power mid game. Even a physical power of 80 scaled (200 raw) would provide a 30 point boost. These don't seem out of line.

I'll try coding that up 10% per talent point above 5 and see how does.

I've pushed Spellswordv124b.

This includes the fixes suggested by Stinkstink, as well as the 10% per talent point above 5 boost to physical power (for application purposes only) of the elemental strikes.

1) Whirlwind teleport will no longer ask for confirmation when targeting your own square (to attack everyone around you).
2) Aura of Fire now has self-damage reduced at talent points above 5.0. Uses a raw talent point calculation for it.
3) Elemental Destruction's info has been updated.
4) Elemental strikes now gain 10% more physical power per talent point above 5 talent points, for application purposes of the debuff.

Heyo. Been trying (Failing at) this class over this week, and figured I'd share my thoughts.

For starters, I really like the concept, and a lot of the moment to moment is fun. The elemental sword stuff is very fun and a nice class difference.

I had a surprisingly troubling push getting going as a Cornac on it, before breaking down and using fairy (so-op). A lot was rustiness coming back to the game, and some of the usual bad luck draws that sometimes have early easy bosses as ridiculous ("Oh joy, getting blasted for 70 percent of health on Kor'pul and frozen"), but... A lot of it was a lack of a decent early ranged option. You can (and I did) grab rush, but if you don't do that and start with what the class offers, you don't have any good responses to range before level 11ish. That makes for really hard starts and a lack of decent answers to ranged attackers for most of the early game dungeons. I see you've done it, but I think it's part of why there are far less level 10+ spellswords in the first few pages versus barbarians.

Generic points are really spread thin on the ground as well. With 50 points to go around and two full class trees on generic, + being a fighter type needing most of combat training tree, it doesn't leave a lot of room for other things. 15-20 points are pretty much mandatorily spent on the Combat Tree, with 40 points of options for the class. So before you even get into racials or optional trees, you're a bit overdrawn. Many classes handle this by offering a good 'either or' type scenario (Brawler) where it splinters reasonably into separate class directions, or by having some of their class specialities overlap/take over for Combat Training (so you can sink into the class, and not also need to beef up standard warrior). Having things which could double up would really help make the class more 'not cornac' friendly. For instance, you have both an Accuracy and an Armor skill, which both overlap with the accuracy and armor skill in Combat training, but still require the Combat Training version to be effective. If those were a bit better, and something was giving the power boost for weapons, Combat Training could fall off as an optional or purchased thing, and it'd free up 15-20 points to go elsewhere.

Possibly just a bad decision, but I tried to go even across the board on the 3 point grabbers (Str, Dex, Magic). Perhaps this was a poor choice, but it made hitting a lot of the 'just getting started' skills troublesome. Going to give another try, boosting more strength early, but there's a lot of cross-draw between the three stats. Maybe leaving dex for later would help getting early guard type stuff up.

Anyhow, writing this made me whimsy. Giving it another Cornac go, sans rush, to see about making it with the basic set.

Edit:
Randomness: Starting without armor training always feels kind of weird from a fighter/mage type angle with two armor traits. It'd also help that it seems to start with 2 rather than 3 generic points (Just checked it versus a rogue).

Hmm, also realizing/remembering that phase door is way better when maxed then at 3-4.

Well, clicking more this time. Definitely still feel generics are light, but using phase door instead of rush makes a much better answer to the range problem.

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I never felt they were spread too thin, but judging by your character sheet, I did my early game building differently:

Level 1: 1 or 2 points in Spellsword Combat, 1 in Water and Air Strike. Don't invest heavily in the strikes early unless you really need the status duration, you want to save points for later abilities.
Level 4: Pick up Healing Waters and Tornado Strike, grab Earth Strike in preperation for Earthen Shield, spare points at this point go into Tornado Strike because it's your best attack and the buff is extremely useful.
Level 8: 1-2 points in Earthen Shield and Tidal Rush, run up the fire tree for Aura of Fire, then start pumping points in Earthen Shield.
Level 12: Take Drain Water, Whirlwind Teleport and Mark of Fire, finish maxing Earthen Shield if you haven't already, get Drain to 4 or 5, then go back and fill out your utility talents to your needs. Once you're statisfied with those, start putting points in Magical Combat.
The only T1 I bother putting more than one point in is Fire Strike. I pick up Wind Storm on the way to Whirlwind Teleport but don't activate it for a long time, when I have enough spellpower and points to invest for it to make a difference.

Some of it is definitely rust

But all of the ones you're talking about are Class Talents. The class talents are pretty reasonable, and isolated enough that you don't feel you're losing something huge if you decide to swap in a magic tree. Looking at the winners, nobody is though.

Albeit, if you're getting Drain Water and Earthen Shield to high levels early, you must be pumping heavily into magic (and using magic boosters). I'm currently doing that with strength instead, and definitely finding that in early, neglecting dex for one of those two seems to pay off better.

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Hi Dracos,

Thanks for the feedback.

In regards to initial talent points, it actually varies by class quite a bit. The Arcane Blade, which the Spellsword was initially based on, only has 5 class talent points and 2 generics as starting points.

A quick survey of the warrior types shows:
Berserker: 4 class, 3 generic
Bulwark: 4 class, 4 generic
Archer: 6 class, 2 generic
Arcane Blade: 5 class, 2 generic
Brawler: 4 class, 4 generic

The newest two classes actually start with even more:
Doombringer: 5 class, 4 generic
Demonologist: 5 class, 5 generic

So there's a fair bit of variation. Mostly its based on what the class needs to work (i.e. Bulwarks and Demonologists have more starting generics because they are based on shield use, so have 2 in Armor training starting). Brawler needs a point in Unarmed mastery to make it unarmed melee function reasonably (along with the usual armor point and accuracy point).

I could perhaps seeing adding at most 1 more point to armor training, or maybe Phase Door/Arcane Veteran, but up to this point I had not felt a great need to.

Lets compare the numbers of Berserkers, Arcane Blades, and Archmages, and Spellswords that reach 1st, 10th, and 50th level. As of this moment checking the realtime level statistics page I see:

Berserker has 132,322 level 1 characters - 38,758 level 10 - 774 level 50 (ratio of 1 to 0.29 to 0.0058)
Arcane Blade has 79,696 level 1 - 15,875 level 10 - 260 level 50 (ratio of 1 to 0.20 to 0.0032)
Archmage has 152,656 level 1 - 45,723 level 10 - 844 level 50 (ratio of 1 to 0.30 to 0.0055)

Spellsword has 1,282 level 1 - 329 level 10 - 18 level 50 (ratio of 1 to 0.26 to 0.014)

So as far as I can tell from these simple statistics is the the Spellsword is easier to level 10 than an Arcane Blade, but harder than a Berserker or Archmage. The level 50 statistics are probably too small to make statements about for the Spellsword. (I mean I skew the statistics nearly by 30% since 5 of those level 50s are mine...)

Comparing to all character created in the 1.2.4 release, there's 48,018 level 1 and 11,388 level 10s, for a ratio of 0.23. Manually counting Spellswords in 1.2.4 there are 128 level 1 or higher and 28 level 10 or higher, for a ratio of 0.22, which is pretty close to average, although with rather poor statistics.

So from the admittedly small sample size I have for the addon, it seems to be getting to level 10 about as well as an average class.

They way I play, I tend to do Trollmire first, even if I'm playing an elf, so that may have something to do with why I don't see any problems with the setup. But generally cautious corner play gets me through the first few levels until I can get Tidal Rush. I could be convinced that Tidal Rush is too high in level. If I remember correctly, back when I was creating the class, Rush was the second tier talent, not first of the Combat Techniques Active tree. By the time you hit level 12 however, you should have some combination of Tidal Rush, Whirlwind teleport, Rolling Earth and Targeted Phase Door. All 4 of those can be used to close distance with ranged enemies. Although nobody seems to take Rolling Earth, even me, so I probably need to revisit it one of these days. Maybe add quake effects to it.

I also only pump strength and magic for the early game (and generally magic a little more). The advanced Weapon Mastery tree is the only one that truly requires dexterity. Spellsword combat generally has enough procs at low level with only a few points in it and base dexterity for my needs. As Stinkstink says you really want to be able to hit the stat requirements for the class talents as you hit the level, so magic needs to be at talent requirements for levels up to 12, and maybe up to 16 or so. At that point I often switch over pumping dex to hit the Weapon mastery talent requirements in the 20s (for Master Deflection - the Spellsword equivalent to Aegis or Unstoppable).

As for the generic trees, you don't really need to go 5/5 for all the talents in the Arcane veteran tree. Its intended to be a resource tree, putting points in as you feel the need. I often stop at 3/5 for most of the talents, as that seems to give me enough resources for my pattern of usage. The conveyance and Martial Mastery trees are also in principle optional. In certain fights, probability travel can be stronger (certainly I abused it in the past - admittedly I haven't tried it with the new restrictions on how often you can use it) than Master Deflection. Or you can limit yourself to 6 points in Conveyance and still got a lot of use out of the tree. I'm quite happy to let you have too many good options for generic points.

I will note that behind the scenes I am still doing a rework on the Martial mastery tree, as it doesn't seem to work as nicely as some of the others. At the moment I'm playing around with:
1st tier be Disarm Resistance passive + Accuracy passive + activate to make next attack disarm
2nd tier be Pinning Resistance passive + Accuracy passive + activate to move 1 square at no turn cost (i.e. single square version of never stop running).
3rd tier be activate to roll accuracy vs accuracy for each melee attack for 1 or maybe 2 turns, if you win the attack roll, counter attack and automatically hit (since you've already beaten their accuracy).
4th tier be the current activate to roll accuracy vs accuracy or spellpower to deflect projectiles and spells harmlessly.

*nods*

Seems a lot was rustiness. I totally even missed Tidal Rush being a more physical rush option in the early direction. And heck, some of it here could be that too. I'll blather anyway. I'd say too many good options is always a nice aim for, though it's nice when they slice naturally into routes to guide folks (Sun Paladin and Brawler reworks do a good job on this front, as examples, while still having almost a lack of bad options).

So there are 3 options for early game move:
Rush being the sorta red herring over in the combat tree.
Tidal rush.
and Phase Door. Phase door pretty much being the right answer. I'd say moving Tidal Rush earlier would help it stand out, but water already has an important T2 sitting in it, with the first good heal option.

I glanced at the outdated wiki on talents, which is where I pulled my 3 from, having totally forgotten other spreads and just checked one at random.

Relegating Dex to a distant third, and completely ignoring the arcane veteran tree until late game has been a phenomenially more successful run. I will say for the game so far, I've never felt needy for stamina, mana seems to burn pretty easily. Possibly underweighted/cost on the stamina side, or vice versa? Highest stamina spends on the tree seem to top out around 30ish, early, while mana spends go into the 70s. With all the high cost mana sustains the class offers my mana isn't really outpacing my stamina.

I will say at this point:
Master Deflection is a pretty cool skill. Definitely though, the middle two options of the tree feel like they do need something more/different. I can't picture a time where I'd use Master Parry over an AoE attack, a teleport/phase door, or a shield. At 36 point entry, if there's enough enemies to make it worthwhile, at least some of them are casting magic. Maybe on nightmare or higher it just becomes a better answer to dangerous melee or if you build spellsword without heavy armor.

Arcane veteran almost is a trap. Even in this run, only the T2 seems like a smart investment really. I'm putting in points to Arcane Armor which numerically seems like it should be valuable, but I think that's ending up mostly being the fatigue bonus and that there aren't many enemies who see a real difference between 75 armor and 90ish in late which is when it reasonably would come in. I dunno, in hindsight, ignoring that tree to make more room for a racial would probably be my angle if I went non-cornac on this class. Maybe if it let you apply some of the armor against Magic attacks? I'm not quite sure where Martial Magic fits in on a build, aside from an emergency button. Sure seems to show up as a 1 point dip, which seems a shame for a tree capper. I guess its a way around the high mana cost abilities in a pinch?

On this successful run, excluding Master Deflection (which is awesome), the two class generic trees are my least invested ones. I'll probably fling more into Master of Weapons, but packing it into combat training and largely ignoring the generic trees seems like its been a winning move. That seems sad a bit. Definitely it feels unwise to put more than a point into master of weapons until heavily filling in Combat Accuracy, since that gives a much higher boost until late. It's a real different story over on the class talent tree, where almost every option is 'darn, well, I really should boost something else higher before I dip into that'. Across the board, the T3s are super interesting options, even overshadowing to a bit the T4s.

Edit: Weird suggestion: Remove dex as a suggested point entrance. Since its only needed for one main T3 talent and one optional (and cool) tree, it'd help new folks feeling out the class know magic and strength is where to go. Then again, all the classes go with 3.

Anyhow, I yammer primarily because I find it a really interesting and fun idea. I actually haven't played around with Arcane blade.

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Hi Dracos,

This is actually very useful feedback as its clear I need to work on the info boxes for them.

1st) Master Parry, Master Deflection, Martial Magic all take no turn to use. In the info boxes it says "Usage Speed: Instant", but I should add a "This talent does not take a turn to use" at the end as well. So there's no either/or choice with master parry and something else like an attack. All 3 are intended as instant emergency buttons. Or to make crazy stunts possible.

2nd) Martial Magic will automatically trigger if your mana drops below one outside of your turn (say if you're hit by a mana burn attack) and prevents your sustains from dropping. Basically it allows you to fight anti-magic enemies with the only worry being silence for how many turns the martial magic effect lasts.

In rogue-like mode I consider 1 point mandatory, otherwise that rare or elite anti-magic type will completely shut you down and likely end the game. At 1 point and 3 turns its basically good for an emergency teleport or phase door out of combat. At 5 points and 7 or 8 turns you can probably defeat such an enemy reliably.

Its true most people do leave it as a 1 point wonder, so I may need to add something in addition to duration at higher points.

3rd) As you note the class needs dexterity for the T3 Arcane Prowess as well as the advanced Martial Mastery tree. However, it also needs dexterity for basic accuracy (allowing you to ignore Combat Accuracy if you want for a bit), as well as the class defining Spellsword Combat (T1 in the Magical Combat Tree) as the chance to proc is based off dexterity. Also the dagger mastery talent/dagger damage if you decide you want to go 2 weapon style and have the offhand do more damage.

This can be compared to the Arcane blade whose 3rd stat is Cunning. They use it for basic critical chance improvement, triggering their equivalent spell proc sustain (Arcane Combat), their Arcane Cunning ability, the dirty fighting tree (which is available at level 1), and I guess the survival tree.

I can try changing the description of the class to emphasize strength and magic first, and put dexterity third. However you definitely need it eventually.

4th) Different play styles will lead to different resource consumption patterns. Most of the stamina talents are attacks and tend to be cheaper than the mana effects and sustains which have more powerful effects. In addition, mana costs are affected by fatigue at twice the value of stamina talents.
So if a mana talent costs 30 mana base (like whirldwind teleport), a 25% fatigue value will make it cost 45 mana.
If a stamina talent costs 25 (like tidal rush), a 25% fatgiue value will make it cost 31 stamina.

I think my stamina consumption tends to be higher than yours, and thus I find use in the Arcane Stamina sustain. I can
easily burn 150+ or more stamina late game in 8 turns of action (at which point the Elemental strikes are coming back off cooldown). At which point having some form of stamina recovery becomes very important. I find it very useful in longer rare/unique/boss fights.

Although I may need to do a pass looking at mana/stamina costs again and compare to other classes. Things have changed a bit while I was away.

5th) As for Arcane armor, it was originally designed as a resource talent first, and a defensive talent second. Assuming you have 30% fatigue base, Arcane armor at 5/5 will make your mana using spells about 20% cheaper, and your stamina ones about 12% cheaper. However it still provides more armor (assuming your main armor has 16 armor base), then the Armor training talent. Armor training scales at 2.8/2.1/0 per talent point in massive/heavy/light armor while Arcane armor scales at 4.0 per talent point, irregardless of armor type.

So I'm hesitant to buff it further. The fatigue reduction is a fairly strong effect, as there are very few places one can get it in talents, similar to Hardiness only coming from Armor Training. The armor portion is 1.4x to 2x stronger than Armor training, to compensate for the lack of crit reduction.

6th) I think the only T4 in the class talent trees that needs a look at is Rolling Earth. The other 3 I'm fairly happy with and see people taking regularly.

As noted before, I think the Arcane Veteran tree is a tree that you don't take for its own sake, but take as needed to make all your other abilities work. So I think I'm happy where it is sitting at right now, except for maybe Martial Mastery which I don't think I've seen anyone take beyond 1/5. I'll try playing around with silence removal upon activation at 5/5 and see how that goes.

Lastly, the Martial Mastery tree is under rework.

Edit: Formatting.

The T4s are good mostly. I don't actually think it is a bad thing that the T3s are almost the more interesting option, since it means that for more of the game, the most interesting option on the tree is available as a decision consideration.

I think I glazed over Master Parry taking no turns, so that's fair (It's a rare occurrance, and spellsword has it more frequently than normal), but there's also it being a decision thing. Master Deflection, I primarily set on Auto on sight and forgot about it, since at 10 turns, that covers much of the battle space from sighting to finish on normal. Master Parry is a 1 turn thing, so it's always a 'have to think about it'. Some folks like that, but for me, that just is one more attention demand among the variety of interwoven abilities that I might be playing with. Mark of Fire works as a 1 turn wonder, since I can always view it as setup for a big hit that turn. Master Parry is more "I'm terribly out of position, here's hoping for luck on one round" which seemed expensive to invest in.

I see with Martial Magic. I didn't quite get that (Perhaps breaking it into its own paragraph?), and can see where that'd be a good option.

Anyhow, I'm at level 50 at the moment. Taking a break to try out doombringer, but I'll probably come back and clear out the last two orc lairs and high peak. And oddly to your comment, I decided to throw in with the earth T4, not having any real reason to boost much else and figuring an AoE stun was never a bad thing to have.

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Having it perform two shield bashes on anything that winds up adjacent to you would make going sword and board much more attractive.

So I have a working copy of the addon with the following changes:

1) Upped the starting generics to be 1 Weapon Mastery, 1 Armor Training, 1 Combat Accuracy.

2) Added a double shield bash to enemies adjacent to the user at the end of Rolling Earth

3) I was requested to make Magical Combat use the higher of str/dex, which I did. This opens up the possibility of ignoring strength in favor of dagger builds early on, which I think is a good diversity option.

4) Modified the Martial Mastery tree heavily.

Talent 1: Master of Weapons
5 stamina cost
Grants passive disarm resistance (15-50%), Accuracy (5-25) and can be activated at no turn cost to make the next attack or melee talent disarm the enemy or enemies hit.

Talent 2: Master Stance
10 stamina cost
Grants passive pinning resistance (15-50%), Accuracy (5-25) and can be activated at no turn cost to move 1 square. Cooldown scales as math.floor(self:combatTalentLimit(t, 3, 20, 6)) (i.e. 18 turns at 1 point with 1.2 mastery, down to 5 turns at 5/5. Minimum cooldown is 3 turns).

Talent 3: Master Parry
10 stamina cost
Grants passive defense (5-25) and accuracy (5-25), and can activated at no turn cost to use accuracy as melee defense for 1 turn. Enemies which are disarmed are automatically evaded.
Cooldown scales as math.floor(self:combatTalentLimit(t, 5, 20, 10)) (gets down to 9 turns at 1.2 mastery and 5/5 points).

Talent 4: Master Deflection
20 stamina cost.
Effects same as now. No turn cost to activate. Use accuracy for ranged defense/deflect spells (spellpower vs accuracy) for 2/4/6/8/10 turns. 25 turn cooldown.

However, because these are fairly major changes, they'll break current spellsword games, as I'm adding new callbacks.

I was trying, with some suggestions from Shibari and Grayswandir, to get the code to gracefully handle the changes going from the older talent versions to the newer talent versions, but I don't have that working yet. Right now, if I push an update out on steam, it will break current spellsword games.

So I've pushed this to the tome addons website, but not steam at this time. Trying to figure out what the best way to handle this for steam is. Version Spellswordv125a.

Edit: I've modified the callback in Master of Weapons to be in the effect instead of the main talent, which means it shouldn't actually break anything. I've pushed to both the tome site as well as steam version 125b.

Huh, I thought things were different. So no more accuracy effect multiplier. A shame, that was kind of a neat outlier.

Been using Rolling Earth, and I'm not a sword and board so the change there made no difference.

Practically speaking, when it works, it feels like a really powerful ability anyway. What's unfortunate is stun immunity shuts it off entirely. It'd be nice if they were separate effects:
Hey do I beat your spell defense with my spell power? Get yanked into my death radius, where my AoE swords and other attacks can maul you and the group quickly. (Maybe have this use Knockback resistance or pinning?)
Do I do it again, and you not have stun resist? Get stunned for huge timeframe.

That would make it still a great grab skill when used against anyone, instead of a group of enemies (a good percentage of rares) just shutting it down entirely with stun resist (No damage, no movement, no effect). T4s just generally shouldn't get entirely nulled out with one resist.

Master Parry in its current form seems more a sniping or emergency shot move, just because its duration is so low and points reduce cooldown rather than increase 'not think about it' time. I dunno, I'd probably go 3,3,1,5 with the current setup, and be eying those 2 3s if something else more interesting gave an option. Disarm and pinning resistance is nice though.

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Actually it should be two effects. The movement checks against knockback immunity, and the stun checks against stun immunity and physical save.


I went with knockback immunity as I imagined it as the earth itself pushing up and launching the target from below. I suppose I could change knockback immunity to teleport immunity, which is what Battle Call uses.



I'm playing around with a modification to Master Parry. The single turn duration I found was a bit hard to work with and in many cases I simply guessed wrong when a melee attack was coming in.

So what I've done is fixed the cooldown to 12 turns. I set the initial duration to 2 turns. And then there's a % chance (increasing with talent points) that a melee miss on the character will refresh the effect. At 5/5 with a 1.2 multiplier, its a 55% chance on any given melee attack to refresh the duration to 2 turns

So when you're completely surrounded, it will stay up very reliably until the number of enemies around you drops. But 1 on 1 with a boss, unless its a melee boss will tend to drop off fairly quickly. Also, if its on an NPC, its fairly easy to avoid - i.e. don't attack for 2 turns or attack with overwhelming accuracy.

On IRC we were also talking about how the class lacks any actual Shield interaction skills (i.e. counter attack improvement), and just did shield bashes. So to help Sandblast, it now automatically activates your block talent for free if you have it. (Doesn't affect current cooldown, just provides the effect). And Earthen Shield now adds your shield's block value to its maximum hit point value. Although with the additional Earth tree changes, I've dropped the chance to proc while wielding a shield down to 75% from 80%, to match the current Arcane Blade chances.

Cool. I didn't look at the code, I just noticed for things with Stun immunity they seemed to get no effect and eventually stopped trying it if I saw that and used a different movement ability. Maybe they had knockback as well. Entirely possible.

Oddly, sort of curious just what spells get parried by Master Deflection. Definitely did see several do it, but also saw a lot of spells go right through it. Maybe its just the focus on giant area spells by enemies in the late game. Lots of fireballs, snow and fire blizzards, and waves of flame.

Anyhow, 1 more to the winner pile for the class. 4 deaths, and at least one due to sleepyhead play. Definitely found the 4 magical sword trees to be a lot of fun to play with and a good addition to the game. *goes to wipe out the golem to close out the run*

Either I'm too used to Athamaton or the build was just that good, as it was enormously one sided. 4 round kill. Didn't even get to get his reflective skin or other sustains going.

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It only affects spells with the reflectable tag. So certainly not all spells. I think AoEs tend to lack that. Certain other spells as well. Unfortunately, its hard to tell as a player without going code diving.

Thanks for trying the class. I appreciated the feedback.

In other news, I've pushed Spellswordv125c.

1) Sandblast was buffed to now activate the Block talent as well (instantly, ignoring cooldowns).

2) Earthen Shield now adds your shield Block value to its maximum hit point pool it can absorb.

3) Master of Weapons cooldown on the disarm increased to 12 turns.

4) Master Parry cooldown fixed at 12 turns, no longer improves with talent points.
Accuracy bonus removed. Duration increased to 2 turns initially. Now has an increasing % chance (15-50% with 1.0 mastery) on each enemy melee miss to refresh the duration to 2 turns. Still has 100% evade on enemies who are disarmed.

5) Martial magic at 5 or more talent points will remove all silence effects when activated.