ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:13 pm
Posts: 1
Hope this is the right place, i've read the guide, but.. well, it's not working for me, and the replies show that ti's incorrect in a few places, so i've been looking at winners and trying to get a feel for whats important, but.. well, with all my characters, not just brawlers -- no matter how well i'm doing, I hit daikara and just watch my life counter drop to 0, no matter how hard I steamrolled the rest of the t1 dungeons.

I've decided I want a brawler to be my first win, so i'm trying to piece it together.

So, first of all, some assumptions I make, feel free to correct me.

1.) Always have an escape, phase door runes can save your life.
2.) Defense is good, but lack of offense will get you killed just as quick, you need a balance.

So, with those two in mind, questions:

Fast metabolism has literally saved me a dozen times on berserkers (my primary class before I unlocked brawler) -- I feel I should get it early on, but I don't know how early on I should get it, i've tried different combos, and with it I certainly get farther, but taking it always puts me at a offensive deficit that I pay eventually in lives.

So, my current plan is double strike -> 4, Relentless -> 5 (to get the CD on DS down) rush/unarmed mastery 1, fast metabolism -> 5.

Terrible?
-----

Unarmed mastery or the last two pugilism skills, which is more important, to this point i've been rushing 5/5 in all pugilism, but i'm starting to think maybe UM 5 with 1 in backhand/fists of fury might get me further. Thoughts?

----

Being dex focused with striking stance, how important is combat accuracy? I always raise it as it opens up, but.. if I can get by without it, I could move those points to vit/unflinching resolve, hel soak up some of the stuns bleeds.

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Mages, do we HAVE a good way to deal with them, besides "rush -> PUNCH", because most of my deaths are to thunderers or fly traps nuking me while i'm trying to eithern take down the melee entourage they've got, or trying to close the gap because I had to use rush on the OTHER mage.

Is it just stacking resists, or is there some core mechanic to dealing with ranged death that i've failed to grasp?

----

Mobile defense/counter attack, the guide calls them worthless, i've seen a bunch of eople say otherwise, any thoughts? I usually max mobile defense, but have yet to get far enough to have points to spend outside of fast metabolism/pugilism. PErsonally,I find the stats and bonuses I want more often on robes and leather than I do chain or plate, coupled iwth the already huge amounts of defense brawlers get, it just seems to make sense to focus on defense, but.. well, i've never gotten past level 18, so I may be mistaken.



I know those are all kind of noob questions, but.. they need to be asked


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:52 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:18 am
Posts: 285
Teleport>phase door. Phase usually don't put enough distance between you and problems.

Fast metabolism was buffed earlier, and now is definitely awesome. Most guides was written before the buff. Double Strike and Relentless are Brawler core. So, your build is quite good.

Mobile Defence and Counter are also totally great. Together it will let you slaughther mobs of enemies. Especially if you are a halfling.

Mobility is definitely a problem for pretty much any melee class. There are two solutions to it. First - get more mobility abilities, such as Movement infusion ,or Wanderer's Rest boots. Second - let them come to you instead. Lure enemies around the corner, where you can kill them without (much) witnesses.

Resists and Antimagic tree helps vs mages too.

As for guides, read them, but don't trust them completely. Read character reports (such as mine - viewtopic.php?f=49&t=37400) and check winning builds in Character Vaults.

EDIT: and note that Spinning Backhand can also be used to close distance. So it's like another Rush with less range, but smaller cooldown, and hitting more people.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 4
I find that one of the most important things early on is finding a good pair of gauntlets. Sometimes the RNG gods aren't in your favor and you'll need to scrounge a bit. Towns may have a tier 2, or even better a tier 3 set.

Skeleton helps out a lot as well. Their first passive that gives strength and dex is amazing for brawler. This allows you to be more liberal with con and cun points. http://te4.org/wiki/Skeleton_%28talent%29

It's a great class, but can be a bit slow in the first 10-15 levels. I find that once you have around 35-40 in STR, DEX, and Cun it's a good idea to crank constitution.

I've gotten to level 30 on a brawler (roguelike), but I glitched out in oozeden and can't even move now. I also just recently lost a level 19 due to a silly mistake. Here's a reference if you are interested in how they were leveled up.

Level 19
http://te4.org/characters/22219/tome/d7db2d73-eedd-4501-946e-1d1f8eb12dee

Level 30
http://te4.org/characters/22219/tome/4376a4de-49cb-4d93-acc7-1d6863ed26de


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:28 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 1303
Location: Finland
It's funny how you mention the tier 1 dungeons and then Daikara. You're not going to Daikara right after tier 1's, are you?
I wouldn't do Daikara before lv 20 if that gives you troubles.

Also a tip for the giants; don't rush into a room with them. Instead wait for them to come peek at who just took a look at their camp.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:07 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:47 am
Posts: 22
Man teleport and phase door are cool but my setup nowadays is psychoportation torque and two movement infusions, teleport is really unreliable and daikara has mostly packs of monsters, that means that if you get a bad teleport you will have to face a 10 or so enemies. And what the other guy said, do this before daikara:
  • (dwarf start if dwarf)
  • norgos lair
  • trollmire
  • derth arena(you can do it anytime just do it at lvl 13 or less)
  • the cursed(you can do it anytime but this is not too hard and gives good exp)
  • scintillating caves
  • korpul ruins
  • trapped quest
  • (if you are on normal do the hearth of the gloom)
  • rhaloren camp.
  • old forest.
  • the maze.
  • derth's tornados
  • hidden compound.
  • golem graveyard
  • sandworm lair.
  • ruined dungeon
  • (if on normal do lake nur)
  • halfling ruins

if you do this you will be very well prepared to do daikara.

Finally don't run towards stone thrower giants IMO they are the most dangerous enemies in daikara excluding rares, if you can lure them to you, you will be in control of the battle field giving you a better chance at victory.

Edit: some corrections thanks to Faeryan.


Last edited by nogardark on Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:21 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 1303
Location: Finland
Derth elemental invasion will happen at lv14 so arena quest is good until then.
Trapped merchant quest will still trigger after Melinda quest so it's at least until lv24. Most likely when I got it I had gained levels in the Crypt (played a Yeek) so I was prolly 25-27 when the merchant quest triggered.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:40 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:55 pm
Posts: 19
First time playing a Brawler, so I'm looking for advice not giving it... well at least on Brawlers. ;)

I hit Arena at 8th level then on to Diakara (after doing some of the wimpy dungeons). Typically I hit Diakara first, Maze second, Trollmire 3rd and Worm Queen last. I typically do this order because Diakara is the toughest on down to Worm Queen as the easiest.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the level on the above dungeons set as you enter? I enter Diakara at 8-9th level because the monsters will be low level too. Typically Diakara is fairly easy. I've found that if I do Diakara or the Maze last, they can be very tough!

I suggest hitting them in the order mentioned above AND at an early level. You can always come back later.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:55 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:25 pm
Posts: 38
Daikara has a lot of hard hitting ranged mobs. Due to your low level, you may or may not have the correct toolkit to deal with them. It's easier to start from easiest to hardest so that you get better equipment (this matters a lot!) and levels for more options. Give the order nogar gave a try, it'll help a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:11 pm
Posts: 127
i personally usually go (for any class): trollmire -> norgos lair -> heart of gloom -> arena + curse lifting -> kor'pul (having some escape at that point i.e. shield/teleport/movement infusion etc) -> scintillating caves -> shaloren camp -> old forest -> sand worm -> lake nur <-> maze (and clear derth) -> daikara, sometimes even something else before daikara like halfling complex, hidden compound etc, and tempest peak around that time too
zones have minimum scaling so if you go to daikara too early you are in a higher risk than if you go there later


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:21 pm
Posts: 10
How are Spellhunt Remnants for Brawlers? The wiki does not list their abilities as they power up or anything, really.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2014 2:02 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 1303
Location: Finland
BobDinosaur wrote:
How are Spellhunt Remnants for Brawlers? The wiki does not list their abilities as they power up or anything, really.

They're awesome.

Spellhunt Remnants (6 def, 8 armour)
Requires:
- Talent Armour Training

Infused by arcane disrupting forces
Crafted by a master
1.50 Encumbrance.

[Unique]
Type: armor / hands ; tier 5

When wielded/worn:
Armour: +8
Defense: +6
Spell save: +15
Mindpower: +12
Mental crit. chance: +5%
Light radius: +1
When used to modify unarmed attacks:
Base power: 34.0 - 47.6
Uses stats: 40% Dex, 40% Str, 40% Cun
Damage type: Physical
Armour Penetration: +18
Physical crit. chance: +12.0%
Attack speed: 80%
When this weapon hits: Destroy Magic (100% chance level 5).
When this weapon hits: Mana Clash (15% chance level 3).
When this weapon hits: Aura of Silence (10% chance level 1).
Damage when this weapon hits: +50 manaburn arcane / +20 silence
It can be used to destroy magic in a radius 5 cone, costing 89 power out of 150/150.

Attackspeed is 100% for non-Brawlers!

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:07 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
Posts: 318
Kyuubil wrote:
So, my current plan is double strike -> 4, Relentless -> 5 (to get the CD on DS down) rush/unarmed mastery 1, fast metabolism -> 5.

This reply is a little late, but fast metabolism is a low priority upgrade. Also, relentless 4 to 5 can wait because you already minimize the CD of DS at 4. So after getting DS and relentless to 4, I'd say work on UM, spinning backhand and Rush first. Once you have these at reasonable levels, it's time to build Flurry of Fists and then Exploit Weakness. Those are the core talents.

Leave Fast Metabolism for the endgame, once you run out of really good talents to boost.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
Posts: 2263
ummm, i think the main point has not been made.

certain classes, bralwers being one, have low survivability.

so you have to make their initial hit as hard as possible.

so i just go all out on rapid max dmg in first 1-2 hits and then buy all the +life gear i can find. and rush 5/5 to get in close and reduce cooldown.

and always build thinking, what is the most dangerous class to my class? in this case, ranged attackers you can't get close to quickly. so get every possible talent and gear to increase movement speed and options.

and u need great gloves. go straight to AM city and buy them there or in last hope.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:04 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:53 am
Posts: 5
I'm starting to give Brawler a try now after having a Marauder winner and a likely Arcane Blade.

I too used to have problems with getting past the Diakara/Dreadfall without dieing more than once or twice.

The biggest factor that I found is having a basic understanding of resistances, both yours and your enemies.

For instance Diakara has lots of potentially big hitting Lightning damage, even the alt version (fire) has lightning. So when you enter Diakara, hopefully you have saved a ring of Lightning resistance or 2 + other items if possible. It is totally worth swapping out a 'good' ring for a low grade +15% lightning resistance just for Diakara for instance.

Once you start getting a solid handle of resistances for both you and the enemy things get substantially easier for the first 1/3 - 1/2 of the game.

The other thing that helps a great deal and understanding the hierarchy of escapes. The basic overview is (from best to worst):
1. Determined path of near instant escape. (eg Movement infusion, telekinetic leap)
2. Semi-determined path. (eg, controlled phase door)
3. Randomly determined escape. (phase door, teleport).

Basically you should be escaping before you have to rely on random events. Controlling the fight includes running away to rest/reset cool-downs and get a better start to the fight.

Once you get those 2 things down, playing any Class becomes much easier. From what I understand Brawler is a bit of a tough class to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:38 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:01 am
Posts: 3
Putting this here since i got brawler questions of my own:


1. How viable is a DEF-based counterattacking/defensive grappling brawler in NM? In normal, most mobs melt just being next to a countering brawler like those 1vsMany kung-fu movies.

2. Does Flexible Combat trigger on defensive grappling? Does Flexible Combat in turn trigger on-hit effects? Does melee on-hit effects such as 20% cripple in turn trigger more Flexible Combat procs? I think it does but the logs aren't clear on where my extra hits are coming from.

3. Is it possible for grappling to break due to spell or mindpower on-hit effects? I've had this problem after I switched to gloves with 10% dominate on-hit effect. I don't think I had this problem with my crippling or disarm gloves.

4. I got a stone warden with eternal guard and spectral shield die in nightmare far east because of debuffs. Being stunned, disarmed, confused, etc repeatedly means no shield block = death. Even high saves with Power is Money and equips weren't enough and I couldnt find enough gear to give me status immunity. Infusions and skill-based status removal were insufficient as well. How do you deal with debuffs on NM as melee?


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