ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed May 01, 2013 12:45 am
Posts: 26
Nerfs to Oozemancers:
Nourishing Moss healing factor reduced a little
Reduced Slippery Moss fail chance a little
Reduced Slime Roots range
Number of bloated oozes limited to the Mitosis talent level
Reabsorb damage reduction reduced to 40%
Mitosis chance increases with talent level
Call of the Ooze max life is dependent on Mitosis level
Increased Call of the Ooze cooldown
Slime Roots can not reset passives or ubers
Acid Splash radius reduced by 1
Indiscernible Anatomy lost confusion resistance

Buffs to Oozemancers:
Fixed psiblades

Definitely a net nerf!

Is it enough of a nerf? I just did an ascension as an Oozemancer that... wasn't even really a thing in 1.0.1. I died exactly 0 times, with it being my second ascension (and third time in the East). I really didn't bother using Mosses past the very early game, I never had to run (so I don't care about the Slime Roots nerf), and I never actually used Reabsorb, because taking 1/8th damage because of Bloated Oozes was more than enough. So, at least for my playstyle, the biggest nerf is the change to the Call of the Ooze cd (up from 8 to 20!), and that I actually have to level up Mitosis. The change to Acid Splash makes it harder to play stupid and live, but I don't think it's actually that big of a nerf. It'll be harder to use it to hit enemies and get yourself on mucus. I'm ... unsure of confusion resistance being taken off being a big nerf, given how high an Oozemancer's mental save is going to be, but it will make carrying around a wild mental infusion worthwhile.

So... yeah, I don't actually think this is enough of a nerf. I actually don't have much time in the upcoming week to play, but my next game is going to be a 1.0.3 Oozemancer. It'll definitely make the class less faceroll, and you might have to actually pay attention to your Bloated Oozes. So, that is a very big net positive. I don't like that the class remains... essentially resourceless. I had exactly 0 equilibrium failures and my AM shield, once I turned it on, stayed on for the rest of the game in my ascension. I think a reduction of Mucus's equilibrium restoration would be smart, as it'd force more generic point use into the Fungus tree. Again, though, I haven't tested the class in 1.0.3, but I don't like that they're basically resourceless from a design standpoint. I also feel like making some more of their abilities key on Cunning instead of Willpower would be nice, as they feel like a class that runs entirely on one stat, which is a very strong point.

I also think Living Mucus now a bit stronger of a skill, relatively, as you can't be basically maxed out on Bloated Oozes at all times, so having Mucus Oozes isn't working against your Bloated Ooze count. (I feel like Living Mucus should be a low cost sustain for this reason either way.)

And finally, on the plus side, Psiblades isn't bugged! YAY! It's not a huge pain to change equipment! Although the primary use for it, damagewise, is Call of the Ooze. Still, extra Will / Cun / Mindpower is never bad.

The Thalore nerf is somewhat relevant to Oozemancers, too, as I think Thalores were the strongest Oozemancer race. Realistically, though, I think it just means grinding in Farportals, which ... I honestly think is a stupid change, but it might make the early game a tad harder.

What's everyone else think? How are these changes going to affect your playstyle, do you think it's enough? What do your play results show?

_________________
"How do you pronounce Shalore?"
"you pronounce it like "trash" but with an e at the end" - Sheila


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:04 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm
Posts: 1884
Did you seriously make a large post to say they were still OP and build up pressure to nerf them...without actually having played one post-nerfs?

They can be nerfed more easily, if necessary, once figures start coming back. A fast glance at the vault can tell you they were probably too good in 1.01. If they're still OP, it'll be just as easy to tell in 1.03.

As it stands, most of the 1.03 Oozemancers are going to be partially carryover from 1.01 saves. If there's a couple of pages of winning Oozemancers for this version in a few weeks, though, there's a problem still. Nerfs are easy. :)


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:50 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 819
Because you definitely can't even discuss changes without having played them first, right?

Anyway, they seem a bit more reasonable now. I got confused a couple of times despite mental saves, and Indiscernible Anatomy is still one of the best immunity-boosting passive talents. Shrugged off most confuses, but a couple still got through at times. Not worth carrying a mental wild for in my opinion, but it is still a non-trivial nerf. They're resourceless in the sense that you can't spend as much equilibrium as you recover, but at the same time their resource limit is apparent when you think of the sustains. They have a lot of sustains, and you probably can't run all of them until the very end of the game because of, well, resource limits. Sort of like Archmage, except there's no Equilibriumclash and the Oozemancer's resource recovery talent is instant and also damaging. Living Mucus is indeed relatively a bit better due to less competition from Bloated Oozes, but they're not really OP apart from how little effort it takes to get a bunch of them. And I like that they run mostly off of Willpower, as it reflects almost all spellcasters who run mostly off of Magic. I believe the class description says something to the effect that Oozemancers are nature's answer to mages, so there's a nice little thematic thing going there. Ultimately, they're going to max Willpower, Cunning, and Constitution in the same way that many other classes max two main stats and Constitution.

The single big thing that brought Oozemancers down from being completely untouchable gods to merely being incredibly good was the limit on Call of the Ooze to summon 3 Bloated Oozes, which is actually pretty reasonable. Or at least on par with other top-tier defensive talents. Weeell, then they get Fungus for free, and Moss, so they're still probably defensively one of the best classes. Just not so far above the rest as to definitely require nerfs.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:32 pm
Posts: 12
Be careful with the nerfs - not all classes are winnable, as I see it. All the builds I made died many, many times and a large part of them had no chance to defeat the two bosses at the end, despite of being top level with all the gear. My Necromancer recently even did not defeat the fallen paladin! Well he actually did once, but it was after a lot of cheating and adding extra points and I could not repeat it.

The Stone Warden new class was also a disappointment. Not only the Dwarven nature summon skill was extremely bugged up to being unusable, the rest of the class wasn't that powerful either. Despite of the glorified defense, the defense actually sucked against everything but a direct physical blow.

Solipsist was good. This was a reasonable play with useful skills that did give a satisfying battle at the end.

The point is, don't nerf too much. What you think is strong, may turn out completely inept in hands of players like me. Some players may think they're strong, but then utterly fail against ranged enemies or mages or melee orc hordes... Or the final bosses.

I have warm feelings towards the oozemancer because of my 15 years of chronically runny nose and I would not want to see him nerfed into mediocrity before I can play him.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:54 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:02 am
Posts: 10
I would like to thow one thing in:

DO NOT USE THE VAULT AS BASELINE FOR SOMETHING LIKE AN OOZEMASTER.

Oozemaster was a lvl30+ unlock. I STILL havent unlocked it, because the two characters I got above lvl30 since 1.01 didn't get the quest.
Only the most dedicated and best players will ever be able to even start one, so OF COURSE you will get much better statistics compared to starter classes or easily unlocked ones.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm
Posts: 1884
Or those that hack their unlocks file.

Which, admittedly, means you still have a point, because that still weeds out a lot of more casual players still, even if I assumed that was a common practice(I think it is, but not incredibly common. Seen too many people that like their unlocks legit, like me.).

By the way, Thalore always will get the quest.


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:02 am
Posts: 10
Thalore?

ARRRG. I had 3 SHALORE die in their 20s because I though they would be the unlockers :(


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