ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 328
I’ve read this but I still have a question:

If your global speed is modified (say, Slowed by 50%) and you then get hit with a -10% of a turn mechanic, do you lose:

a. 100 energy, because that is 10% of a normal turn?
b. 50 energy, because that is 10% of your Slowed turn?
c. Something else, because formulae feel better when they have logarithms in them?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:09 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:21 pm
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I've been learning about speed and energy as part of my madness building shenanigans, so I think I have a pretty good idea how this works. So here's a long answer to your question.

Typically, without modding or other sorts of oddities, there are 10 ticks per game turn, and actbase is called once per ten ticks or one game turn. Each game turn is when timed effects and resource regen and the like is updated.

When ticks are calculated, it goes through the various entities, and gives them (100*global speed) energy as long as they don't already have enough energy to act, which is by default 1000 energy. If they have enough energy to act, they then have the act function called on them, and they get to take a turn for themselves. This is where spell, mind, and physical speeds come in, as non instant actions will cost 1000 divided by the relevant speed modifier energy when taken, with standard turn actions (like using a non instant infusion or track) costing 1000 energy. So if you look at your action tool tips, it'll say some number percent of a turn, and that means that action costs that percentage times 1000 energy. The player is a bit special here, as they get to take multiple turns in a row if they have at least 1000 energy left over after taking an action, but there are some oddities there that I haven't been able to figure out, such as with turn procs.

Items and skills that add or subtract a percentage of a turn just add or subtract that percentage multiplied by 1000 energy. So the temporal energize effects add 100 energy when they go off, regardless of speed stats.

A consequence of all of this that I have figured out and now am letting the cat out of the bag is that blade and saw horrors are completely and utterly broken, as they have 500% attack speed and thus their attacks only take 200 energy. One of those with temporal energize effects or weapon folding, and well, do the math...


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:16 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:46 am
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Aesthete wrote:
blade and saw horrors are completely and utterly broken

What is "blade and saw horrors"?

I'm still confusing. Say your global speed is 200%, so your attack took 50% of a turn, and then your attack gain 10% of a turn.
Does the whole action only took 40% of turn or 45% ?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:21 pm
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Blade horrors, and their cousins saw horrors which were added in EoR. Look at their character sheet next time you run into one and weep. They are the guys who do those cloud of blades or saws abilities and have that crushing or imploding slow ability from the mindslayers.

I couldn't figure out that speed guide very well from reading it, so I think it is easiest to think in terms of everything as energy and the ticks as it is in the code. In the last example, if you have 200% attack speed (meaning your attack takes half of a turn, global speed isn't accounted here), then it initially costs 500 energy. You started with at least 1000 energy to take the turn and make that attack, so for examples sake lets assume you had exactly 1000 energy to take that turn, and thus would have 500 energy as a result. If part of that attack procced a "gain 10% of a turn" effect, you'd get 100 energy from that, and end the action with 600 energy.

After that is when global speed matters, the next two ticks would give you 200 energy each [(100 * global speed)], and the second tick would bring you back up to 1000 energy and give you an action.

In this example, if instead you only had 100% attack speed but 200% global speed, the first attack would cost 1000 energy, and the proc would give you back 100 energy, ending at 100 energy total. Then the next few ticks would bring you up sequentially to 300 energy, 500 energy, 700 energy, 900 energy, and finally 1100 energy with enough to act again then. That's five ticks to get another turn, which makes sense on an intuitive level with the 200% global speed as half a game turn, and an extra tenth of the energy to act for another turn left over that might matter later.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 328
Ah. So you’re thinking that 10% of a turn is fixed at +/-100 energy, rather than +/-10% of the energy an opponent would otherwise get. That makes slows+turn loss harsher and hastes+speed buffs weaker.

I’ve been playing with an Adventurer variant on Psyshot with Punishments, Mental Tyranny, and FEM. Slowed by Madness I think hits around 50% global speed debuff by endgame, and running triple Winterchill edges on top of that should result in the opponent getting about 200 energy per round, or acting once/five rounds (and that ideally also stunned and confused by madness). I quite like Incendiary Groove for the lingering AoE damage proccing Madness effects and room-clearing, but having Winterchill as a swap-in for killing Insanity’s uber bosses seemed potentially useful, glad to hear it’s the stronger of the two slowing mechanics.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:44 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
Posts: 607
Quote:
and running triple Winterchill edges on top of that should result in the opponent getting about 200 energy per round,

AFAIK, winterchill applies only once per turn, whatever the number of tinkers that you have.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:10 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:21 pm
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Keep in mind at least some of the "lose x% of a turn" procs are handled as turn_procs on the target, at least the one I checked in the scoundrel tree worked that way. If it is handled that way, that means that proc will only work once until the target gets another turn, not the source applying the debuff, nor per game turn.

Talent failure is really strong for this sort of effect though, my reading of the code was for a couple of those was that generally caused the loss of a standard turn regardless of the type of talent being used and its underlying speed. Or in other words, the fail cost 1000 energy on standard settings regardless of speed stats. And I think fumble in the scoundrel tree, one of the ones I was really looking at, could trigger on basic bump attacks too.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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Hmmm. I've certainly seen gain turns with a cap listed on the item, didn't realize turn loss was potentially capped at 1/turn by default.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:38 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:21 pm
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I looked at the code for the winterchill tinker, and I'm not fully sure how they work, but it looks like the turn_procs on that might be the attacker instead of the target. It sets the turn_procs for the winterchill_edge on the very ambiguously named "who" variable, but that is different than the "target" variable that has its energy drained. That's different than how the scoundrel one was handled, so it could work if you are enough faster than your opponent, but dual wielding them is pointless.
You'll probably have to examine each of these things to see how they work in particular, doesn't look like it is consistent.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:18 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:27 am
Posts: 78
Aesthete wrote:
I looked at the code for the winterchill tinker, and I'm not fully sure how they work, but it looks like the turn_procs on that might be the attacker instead of the target. It sets the turn_procs for the winterchill_edge on the very ambiguously named "who" variable [...] but dual wielding them is pointless.


The tinker adds an entry to the item's special_on_hit, and defines a function for it to call (from attackTargetHitProcs). The function's parameters are the weapon, the wielder and the target. The who is therefore referring to the wielder. However, you'll notice that the turn_proc is actually
Code:
"winterchill_edge" .. tinker.uid
Each weapon should therefore have a unique turn_proc, concatenating in the object ID of the tinker. So multiple weapons with winterchill edge should each apply their effect once each full turn.


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