ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: What Makes a Win Legit?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:01 am
Posts: 3
I just beat the standard campaign for the very first time on default difficulty (normal/adventure), and now I'm thinking of trying greater difficulties and settings for more of a challenge. Since I'm a sucker for playing games fairly--especially ones that require some strategy or skill--I looked around a bit on the forums but couldn't find anything that clearly outlines the epitome of winning this game fair and square. I'm assuming it simply means to beat the game on Insane/Roguelike difficulty without add-ons that alter the actual difficulty, but what about specifics like:

-using the items vault to transfer in items from other characters (I understand that it's considered an add-on, but it's a basic function of the game granted you're a donator)
-closing the game via task manager to avoid the auto-save when you want to essentially turn back time and do the part over without dying or for a better turnout
-using add-ons that simply change aesthetic or improve quality of life

-Must I keep to the main plot or can I do side quests (e.g. Escorts and Brotherhood of Alchemists) for extra stats and talents?
-Do I need to go with a specific side at any point where there are two sides to choose from (e.g. Assassin or Merchant, Dragons or Nagas, Sun Paladins or Orcs, etc.)?
-Is there specific gear I can't use if I find them simply because they're too game-breaking? On this note, can I roll for a random artifact from a merchant?
-Are there classes or races I should avoid playing altogether because their racial advantages are too much?

Thanks to anyone who helps me out with this.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
This depends heavily on who you talk to, since "fun" is moot here, I'll give my input:

1) Most purists don't use the vault at all, using it isn't wrong per se, but giving yourself many strong artifacts or randarts for your class can very quickly make a difficulty negligible.
2) This is obviously savescumming and therefore can't be considered fair under any circumstances
I personally feel less rewarded for my efforts when I use the vault or savescum, so I don't do it. If I do use the vault it's usually very sparingly or for a silly build. Some people consider scumming an escort for a necessity in higher difficulties to be fair game, I don't think there's really an excuse below madness for this though.
3) They're just that, quality of life, this doesn't make the game easier or affect gameplay in a meaningful way, so it's fine eg: start in last hope, quick drown, original respec, etc

4-7 are vastly irrelevant as far as fairness goes because it doesn't matter what decisions you take or what items you prepare in the storyline, there's no reason not to roll merchant randarts.
Unless you're abusing bugs or glitches for easy wins (mindslayer snapshotting, stone warden LUA errors) you can do whatever imo. Adventurer is probably also the least legit of all classes to win with depending on how much you intend to break the game :P

These are just my views on things, but I have played a fair bit of insane and have talked with quite a few people who play insane+

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"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
- Savescumming is blatant cheating.
- I'm very skeptical of class/race addons in general as they tend to be horribly balanced at best and astralinferno's ones at worst. Avoid anything that changes the game too hugely (usually by adding content) but stuff like quick drown, zomnibus and improved player targetting are all good ideas.
-Vault depends, it comes after T2s which are consistently the hardest part of the game but you can pull out broken level 150+ sludgenest/Madness artifacts from it that no one should be able to have before endgame and trivialise the only other dangerous area (Vor Armory). It is pretty much cheating but could be justified on madness and some edge cases on insane.

- Adventurer is pretty much absurdly broken if you know what you are doing. Otherwise every class/race is sort of balanced with each other.
- Yeah nothing ingame is remotely "illegitimate"

if you are looking for an easy Insane win i would recommend sun paladin, paradox mage, (with DLCs: sawbutcher, psyshot, demonologist), oozemancer or temporal warden as they have very low skill floors compared to their power level.

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<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


Last edited by ster on Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:12 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Feel free to play the game as you wish. If you feel that sometime isn't legit and diminishes from you 'winning' then don't do it, but don't be discouraged by what others say. This isn't a Rogue-like with any standard of criteria, so you can do as you wish - and you should!

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Its amazing what the mind can come up with, but it shows talent to make something of it. - Davion Fuxa
Inscription Guide - Version 1.4.8
Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 970
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
I win is what you decide, though if you use some of the afore mentioned cheaty methods I doubt others will agree with you.

I, for one, am proud of my first normal/adventure win with 8 deaths, 50 addons and horrible skill build.

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A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Posts: 147
I use some addons that some people would say give an unfair advantage (choose escorts, escorts enhanced, succor so I don't lose the 2 point alchemist potions), and to be honest I agree with it, they give some very tangible advantages and help you make your character better indirectly.

The point i'm trying to make, is I've already won a few characters on insane (both on adventure/roguelike mode) without them, so it's not like I really need to "prove" anything.

I use them because at this point i'm not all that interested in "winning" itself, i'm more interested on making good, strong builds, and those addons help me accomplish that and make my life easier.

Image

Using Blighted Maul + Precise Strikes, and proud of it

Get rekt micbran


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Do you actually really need succor, 2 class points isn't that big of a deal on most classes
(i am guilty of using choose your escorts though lol, as currently the game is unplayable without piercing sight on classes with locked Survival and not getting light/tinkers makes your character extremely weak)

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:01 am
Posts: 3
I really appreciate the openness to different playstyles that this community seems to have. I'm also happy to find that there are things not really acceptable when playing. To be perfectly honest, I'm guilty of save-scumming when I've backed myself into a corner (e.g. Escorts dying, exploring vaults I'm not necessarily ready for). I already felt bad doing it and thought of stopping, but the overall negative response to the concept pretty much clinches it for me. Guess I just gotta learn to play more carefully. Oh, well--should be more rewarding that way.

Anyway, it seems like making it through this game legitimately is pretty straightforward. I would guess that the most respectable parameters to play within would be:

-Insane/Roguelike Difficulty (though some classes may struggle with this a lot more than others)
-No add-ons (with some exceptions)
-No usage of the Items Vault (would it only record that I took advantage of the add-on if I retrieve an item from it?
-No save-scumming
-No Adventurer class

Am I missing anything?

Lastly, is there any reason why I should play any version of the game other than the most recently released one?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 970
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Playing before Timeless was nerfed w/ the addition of fixed cooldowns perhaps. Playing embers with pre-sawbutcher nerf, that kind of thing.

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A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:38 am 
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Higher

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 74
The real question is whether Heart of Poosh makes a win illegitimate or not. /s

Quote:
-No usage of the Items Vault (would it only record that I took advantage of the add-on if I retrieve an item from it?

Afaik yes.

Quote:
Am I missing anything?


No glitch abuse (augmentation snapshotting, split halves glitch, etc). Abusing the bad AI is fine however, it's just part of playing the game.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:05 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Patashu wrote:
The real question is whether Heart of Poosh makes a win illegitimate or not.

not really, poosh is an awful zone due to blinkwyrms and while it's very good most characters should have enough sources of HP without it

bearscape is probably the best DG zone to see but even then i usually end up ignoring it until it's irrelevant despite it being easier than old forest

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:01 am
Posts: 3
Patashu wrote:
No glitch abuse (augmentation snapshotting, split halves glitch, etc). Abusing the bad AI is fine however, it's just part of playing the game.


Oh, I didn't know stuff like that was even possible. Have these glitches been patched out?

Micbran wrote:
Playing before Timeless was nerfed w/ the addition of fixed cooldowns perhaps. Playing embers with pre-sawbutcher nerf, that kind of thing.


I see. Not used to playing open source games. Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:29 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 970
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
Augmentation, yes in 1.5. Split bug... according to dado, no.

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A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:11 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Posts: 147
Split bug doesn't allow you to spawn infinite halves, so it's not like you can exploit it anymore

Also makes the game unplayable


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
split bug has been messed with but not entirely patched out, augmentation is better for non-abuse purposes now (a net gain imo) and chronomancy still lets you do ridiculous things like delete enemies permanently or duplicate plot items

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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