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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
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Been experimenting with Tinker classes in classic campaign. Ogre seemed like a good choice for Sawbutcher. Problem is I'm playing on Insane and haven't gotten far enough to have the spare generic points to test this out. I'm wonderingif the racials lower cooldowns for injections?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:11 am 
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Archmage

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Should they?
They increase effectiveness of injectors I think.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
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Racials never influence the CD of injection. Just their strength.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:08 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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If you mean Grisly Constitution, I don't know if it improves the contribution of stats to cooldown, because I have no idea how that math works.

If you mean Writ Large, it *definitely* cools down injectors twice as fast as normal. This being the case, I suspect Scar-Scripted Flesh also works on injectors.

I don't know that Ogres are a great Sawbutcher match, not sure why you want to wield a two-handed steamsaw in one hand since most Sawbutcher talents require dual steamsaws. Shalore's Timeless reduces injection cooldowns as well, and Grace of the Eternals + Continuous Butchery + Timeless is simply murderous (having recently used it to win in the body of a Sawbutcher as a Possessor).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:17 pm 
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Spiderkin

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Quote:
If you mean Writ Large, it *definitely* cools down injectors twice as fast as normal. This being the case, I suspect Scar-Scripted Flesh also works on injectors.


I experimented with an ogre. Put the injectors on cooldown and measure the recovery time with or without Writ Large. It is absolutely the same. I do not know if this is a feature or a bug, but Writ Large has *no* influence on the cooldown time of injectors.
And Scar-Scripted Flesh also has no influence on the CD of injectors. And this is normal. When you level up the cooldown time remains unchanged and accordingly stats do not influence it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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Attachment:
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Me having triggered an infusion, a rune, and an injector.

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Me triggering Writ Large.

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Infusion, rune, and injector timer going down by 2, Writ Large going down by one.

Either our games are behaving differently, I'm running a hoax, or you're mis-remembering. I know the second one isn't true, although no one else can actually know that for sure without testing, which still leaves the first one as a possibility.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
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I tried the same experiment as you and you are right, the injectors cooldown faster.

What I did is slightly different. I looked at the salve cooldown instead of the injectors cooldown.
- activate twice a salve, so that all your salves are on cooldown (with 2 injectors).
- look at the time for the salve to go off cooldown

This time (which the what is important for the user, IMHO), is absolutely identical if you activate Writh Large or not.


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A salve is activated twice and Writh Large also..


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The injectors cooldown twice as fast with Writh Large; But the salves do not.

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writh3.png [ 38.43 KiB | Viewed 190 times ]


Now the injectors are off cooldown. But your salves are not :(


I do not know what is the actual mechanism between the injectors and the cooldown time, and I am maybe missing something, but my conclusion is that you gain NO benefit to use Writh Large with salves.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:44 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 132
Interesting. That was one I didn't anticipate.

Try this one. Don't put both your injectors on cooldown, just one (say on Pain Suppressor, which cools down quickly) and then use Writ Large. Your injector will cooldown twice as fast, and if you've got good stats it'll cool down while Writ Large is still in effect. If you use it again as soon as the injector is done, you'll reuse the same injector and still have one to spare. Only if all your injectors go on cooldown will your salves go on cooldown, and its salve reduction that Writ Large can't touch.

So it's not everything, but it's not nothing either. You get to do one, and have it cooldown twice as fast (or possibly faster, if Scar-Scripted Flesh can also influence cooldown), and then you can doubletap (since Writ Large isn't going to be ready a second time before your salves are). Probably best used for doing Pain Suppression Salve followed by Unstoppable Force salve while still keeping an Injector open for status removal or heals.

Timeless is the same. I used Pain Suppression Salve + Fungal Web a lot in my last game, loading up a bunch of instant-speed effects and then cooling them down with Timeless. Typically I had to wait 2 turns for cooldown on the injector.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:13 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
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Indeed what happens is that when you activate a salve and that both your injectors are on cooldown, the salves go on CD for the smallest of the remaining CD time of your injectors. So, yes, if you activate a salve, activate Writh Large, wait a few turns, then activate a second salve, you may have a small gain. But once they are on CD, the salves are not influenced by Writh Large. In some situations it may be useful, but in general, this is very limited.
It is very different with timeless. Activating timeless with your injectors and salves on CD will accelerate both times.

Concerning the cooldown time, I am 100% certain that Scar-Scripted Flesh has not influence, as it has not influence on the cooldown any inscription. If you have for instance a regeneration infusion of the warrior, gaining strength or increasing Scar-Scripted Flesh will make it more powerful, but in no way faster. It is the same for any inscription, including injectors. Technically stats can only influence the 'power' of the inscription, not its cooldown.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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It's not a small benefit if you wait until your first injector is fully cooled down at double speed before activating another, it's the full benefit you'd expect from Writ Large. Then there's a sliding scale of partial benefits if you're forced to trigger somewhat early, down to no benefit if you're forced to trigger 2 infusions simultaneously. On a melee Ogre I'd tend to use a Shielding Rune, a Pain Suppression Salve, a Movement Infusion, close the gap, and then hit Writ Large once I've gotten where I want to go. My injector is often cooled down before I need to use another one, so I often get full benefit.

I very much favor keeping at least one injector off cooldown as much as possible in order to be able to react to highly detrimental status effects, and so getting back to the state where I can use an injector on something optional and still have one in reserve in half the time has value to me. If the only way to use injectors that's valuable to you is using both simultaneously that's fine, but that appears to be an evaluation difference, not a claim that it actually does not do anything in the game code.

Timeless' CD effect only affects injector CD and not salve CD. So, again, if you trigger both injectors and put all your salves on cooldown, then hit Timeless, your salve cooldown timing won't change at all. But if you trigger one injector with the faster cooling of two salves, then hit Timeless, then hit the other, because the fixed salve cooldowns = shortest injector timing, you will have lowered the time until you can use an injector again.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:32 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
Posts: 319
Interesting, thank you both for doing the testing. For some reason I assumed the Ogre Racials would work on Injectors same as they would runes & infusions and that vastly increased usage of them would make Ogres an ideal race for Sawbutcher.

And yeah you could run the 2handed artifact saw that fully heals you (or the one that does 3 attacks each time) in one hand along with Deathsawz or Stormcutter :D

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:56 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 132
You could, I'm just not sure it would be beneficial. A two handed steamsaw counts as dual-wielding already, but my guess (haven't been in position to try it) is that wielding an offhand steamsaw negates the dual wield on the main hand one. If I'm wrong Ogre is definitely worth doing.

So you'd either have:
Main hand attack Razorlock, offhand attack Razorlock.
OR
Main hand attack Razorlock, offhand attack Stormcutter.

But not:
Main hand attack Razorlock, offhand attack Razorlock, additional offhand attack Stormcutter.

But, again, I'm only guessing, since my relevant Ogre doesn't have a 2 handed steamsaw.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:40 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
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If I can get one to vault I can test it. Might have to stop trying insane and do NM instead.

For Science!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 132
To follow up from earlier post - I think ghostbuster was confusing the stat bonuses of Grisly Constitution with Scar-Scripted Flesh's cooldown on crit chance. I can confirm that Scar-Scripted Flesh does accelerate cooldown on injectors, but, again, not salves themselves, and in fact the easiest way to confirm that Scar-Scripted Flesh does work on injectors is to trigger both injectors, smack a training dummy a few times, and watch the injector cooldowns advance while the salve cooldowns do not.


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