ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:59 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:56 pm
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As the title states, this is going to be a relatively basic and short guide (in comparison to my Temporal Warden guide at least). I will only be covering skill progression, race choice and basics, and I won't be discussing alternative ways to build the class.
I do plan to write an in-depth guide on this class at some point - however I am currently laking the time and motivation to write it (especially because I want to get in another insane win beforehand).
I might add more and more details to this particular guide as time goes on, or I might write an entirely new guide for the in-depth version.
That being said, this skill build is still designed to win extremely consistently on Nightmare and somewhat consistently on Insane, so it should not be written off because the guide is short.

I would say that I am pretty well-versed on Mindslayers, as I got about 150+h of playtime on Insane, as well as one win on Insane. This build is the result of all of my experience and
theory-crafting and is pretty polished as a result.

1. Which Race to Pick

the races in each category are listed in no particular order
Best race: Ogre (op infusions due to insane stats, huge hp pool)
Very good races: Halfling (100% crit and massive +saves, stun/daze removal and ignore, very high hp pool), Thalore (a lot of +all dmg and res, high hp pool)
Good races: Dwarf (decent +saves, very high hp pool - basically a worse Halfling)
Decent races: Higher, Conarc, Yeek
Bad races: Shalore, Doomelf, Ghoul, Skeleton


2. Which Stats to Max

Pretty straight forward - go Wil > Cun > Str.
Carry around a bunch of +Cun and +Dex items to unlock prerequisites for your skills and prodigies.
If you are not planning on going for Pain Enhancement System (which you 100% should get) , then go Dex over Str, getting enough Con (preferably through items) to max Thick Skin.


3. Skill Progression

Here's a screenshot of what your build should look like at the end
Image


For class skills, prioritize Projection > Focus > Absorption > Augmented Striking > Psi-Fighting.
Keep in mind you can use the 2nd skill in Psi-Fighting to quickly max Weapon Mastery and equip better weapons, though you should only do this once you got all your offensive "spells" (the ones in Projection and Focus), as you won't need nor want to engage in melee early to mid game.

For generics, prioritize Augmented Mobility over anything else. Also get the skills in Finer energy manipulation ASAP. Also, don't put a point into your first racial if you are an Ogre until you want for antimagic. This way, you can betray your arcane escorts, which increases the benefits you gain from them significantly (you also have to get rid of your inscribed runes ASAP though).

Put your first category point into +1 inscription, your second one in Fungus, your third in Kinetic mastery and your final in +1 inscription.


4. Prodigies

I'd recommend getting Windblade at lvl 30 and Pain Enhancement System at lvl 42, though you can also switch these if you want some more single target over AoE.
Special mentions to: Irresistible Sun, Legacy of the Naloren and Draconic Will. You can switch out Windblade for any one of these, though you should abuse the warrior escort with Legacy of the Naloren (which would obviously move the points from Weapons Mastery in Exotic Weapons Mastery).



I hope this will help you slay some minds and spread the awesomeness of this class :)

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Last edited by San0ix on Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:53 pm 
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Thalore

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The only mind you slayed with this guide was mine.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Wyrmic

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How did you go antimagic as an Ogre? Also, no 4th Ogre racial??


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:01 pm 
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Wyrmic

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tabs wrote:
How did you go antimagic as an Ogre? Also, no 4th Ogre racial??

You can always go antimagic as an Ogre. The 4th racial is a spell, so an antimage cannot use it unfortunately

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:06 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
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Thanks for the guide, I never got the hang of mindslayers and might try this.

Q: Why not 1 point in Sudden Growth?

How did you level up Charged Aura without any points in the prerequisites?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:09 pm 
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Wyrmic

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grobblewobble wrote:
Thanks for the guide, I never got the hang of mindslayers and might try this.

Q: Why not 1 point in Sudden Growth?

How did you level up Charged Aura without any points in the prerequisites?

I find sudden growth to bet pretty much useless, as you already get a lot of healing and you shouldn't drop low while also having a regen infusion up.

You don't need any of the previous skills for many mindslayer-skills, except for the final skill of a tree.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:06 pm 
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Wyrmic

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San0ix wrote:
tabs wrote:
How did you go antimagic as an Ogre? Also, no 4th Ogre racial??

You can always go antimagic as an Ogre. The 4th racial is a spell, so an antimage cannot use it unfortunately


Ah, I thought the first racial was a spell too. Makes sense.

I do wonder why you want Antimagic though. You're locking yourself out of some fantastic gear, especially in the TK slot...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:10 pm 
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Wyrmic

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tabs wrote:
San0ix wrote:
tabs wrote:
How did you go antimagic as an Ogre? Also, no 4th Ogre racial??

You can always go antimagic as an Ogre. The 4th racial is a spell, so an antimage cannot use it unfortunately


Ah, I thought the first racial was a spell too. Makes sense.

I do wonder why you want Antimagic though. You're locking yourself out of some fantastic gear, especially in the TK slot...

You also cannot use your first racial as an Ogre. You can go into Zigur even if you know spells; what prevents you from entering is being undead or having an arcane resource.

Antimagic is good because you gain an incredible amout of survivability with the shield and fungus. Combine that with your naturally high stats (pain enhancement system + 2nd skill in ps-fighting) and you're nearly unkillable to anything that doesn't straight up one-shot you.
Also, the TK slot ignores antimagic.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:17 pm 
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Spiderkin

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San0ix wrote:
Antimagic is good because you gain an incredible amout of survivability with the shield and fungus. Combine that with your naturally high stats (pain enhancement system + 2nd skill in ps-fighting) and you're nearly unkillable to anything that doesn't straight up one-shot you.
Also, the TK slot ignores antimagic.

Yeah, it seems AM makes you so unkillable that you die 3 times while using item vault on a very strong class. That actually sounds the opposite of unkillable. Also if you play on insane you should know already that burst damage is exactly the thing you need to protect yourself against the most. I do not care if get hit by some magical effect that does 100 points per turn, it won't kill my character by itself in the endgame.

Overall, I'm sorry to say but this guide is pretty terrible. When you have a build outside of oozemancer where shalore is bottom tier (wut) and ogre can't use its first nor fourth racial (???) I think something is seriously amiss. You can definitely go AM if you want but this has nothing to do with AM being good. If you want to make a guide on AM mindslayer then please rename this as such because currently the name (and guide itself too, unfortunately) implies that this build is somehow desirable for people who'd like to win on insane.

Overall, I think only finer energy manipulations and maybe voracity has the right skill investment, the latter only if you don't go transcend pyro. I guess you can make combat training work too with those points if you don't go Naloren (which is very good) if we forget that you only had 3/5 in armour training. But I mean, force field at 2/5? Telekinetic leap at zero points but you have enough to invest in manaclash? No points in any skills in the survival tree?

Even if AM was good (and I don't think it is), mindslayers have PLENTY of places to put their generics into. You pretty much demonstrate this yourself by not having enough points (or not even being able to effectively spend points in case of racials) to some awesome skills they posses. Also, AM robs you a cat point on a class that can easily afford to unlock two skill categories pointswise.

Also, you don't even seem to be aware of how PES interacts with augmentation.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:23 pm 
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Wyrmic

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Mankeli wrote:
San0ix wrote:
Also, you don't even seem to be aware of how PES interacts with augmentation.

? I am. You can increase your effectiveness of augmentation via PES.

Kinetic leap is not needed, as I already get enough mobility with a movement infusion and Kinetic Surge. That is because I never NEED mobility to disengage. I just kill everything and that's it. In fact, I tried Kinetic Leap because I, too, thought it to be necessary. However, I found myself never having to use it - it just ended up being a waste of generics. So why would I recommend investing in a skill that I never felt the need to use?

And yes, I died three times. So what? I'm a very fast and unsafe player. I die to a BUNCH of stupid things. Winning on Insane and only dying three times (1x on lvl 17, which is by far the most difficult lvl range for mindslayers, and 2x between lvl 37 and 39). This is by no means a bad build if I managed to win with a worse one (my winner was full caster, which I consider to be worse).

Sure, you might not win on Insane/Roguelike, but I never pretended you could. You can easily win on Insane/Adventure, as I have shown with a worse build and being bad.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:42 pm 
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Spiderkin

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San0ix wrote:
[Kinetic leap is not needed, as I already get enough mobility with a movement infusion and Kinetic Surge. That is because I never NEED mobility to disengage. I just kill everything and that's it.

"Not needing" something isn't a very convincing argument. Did you know that you don't actually need any spells to win an archmage on nightmare? Yes, a player has shown that even an archmage can go antimagic and still win nightmare. That doesn't mean it's good.

So this isn't a basic guide on how to win a mindslayer on insane, this a very niche build that is far from optimal. If you want to make a guide for a niche build then please give a clear indication that the purpose of this build is not to maximise your chances of winning and leave the "I have 150 hours of whatever" and "I'm pretty well-versed" lines aside.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:45 pm 
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Wyrmic

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Mankeli wrote:
San0ix wrote:
[Kinetic leap is not needed, as I already get enough mobility with a movement infusion and Kinetic Surge. That is because I never NEED mobility to disengage. I just kill everything and that's it.

"Not needing" something isn't a very convincing argument. Did you know that you don't actually need any spells to win an archmage on nightmare? Yes, a player has shown that even an archmage can go antimagic and still win nightmare. That doesn't mean it's good.

So this isn't a basic guide on how to win a mindslayer on insane, this a very niche build that is far from optimal. If you want to make a guide for a niche build then please give a clear indication that the purpose of this build is not to maximise your chances of winning and leave the "I have 150 hours of whatever" and "I'm pretty well-versed" lines aside.

This build is optimal in my eyes and you are currently not convincing me otherwise. In fact, you only make me believe in my points even more.
By "not needing" I mean already having enough. It's literally a waste to get more mobility of you're never going to use it. So yes, not increasing my mobility and instead going for more damage or survivability is in fact, what I would consider optimal.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:00 pm 
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Spiderkin

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San0ix wrote:
This build is optimal in my eyes and you are currently not convincing me otherwise. In fact, you only make me believe in my points even more.
That's great but you just wrote in an earlier post how this build can't necessarily even beat insane on roguelike. If your build can't win on insane roguelike on a class as strong as mindslayer then it certainly is not an optimal build. Also, I'm sorry but you are not the one I'm trying to persuade the most: it's the other people who would read this guide and think it's a good build. That's why I posted and I think that's why Mex posted too.

Also, when you have two madness winners, the other who has TWO madness wins and the other who has, as far as I know, the most wins on insane in addition to that madness win, you maybe should consider that just maybe there indeed is something wrong with your build. Especially so since you haven't actually made any sensible counter points to the criticism your build has received.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:01 pm 
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Wyrmic

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Mankeli wrote:
San0ix wrote:
This build is optimal in my eyes and you are currently not convincing me otherwise. In fact, you only make me believe in my points even more.
That's great but you just wrote in an earlier post how this build can't necessarily even beat insane on roguelike. If your build can't win on insane roguelike on a class as strong as mindslayer then it certainly is not an optimal build. Also, I'm sorry but you are not the one I'm trying to persuade the most: it's the other people who would read this guide and think it's a good build. That's why I posted and I think that's why Mex posted too.

Also, when you have two madness winners, the other who has TWO madness wins and the other who has, as far as I know, the most wins on insane in addition to that madness win, you maybe should consider that just maybe there indeed is something wrong with your build. Especially so since you haven't actually made any sensible counter points to the criticism your build has received.

None of you have won with Mindslayers on a higher difficulty than I have. So why should your opinions be worth more than mine? This is not about a class like Archmage, this is not about Madness or roguelike. Your experience on ToME only hinders you, if anything, because you can compensate a worse skillbuild with your better playstyle and experience. I, on the other hand, have to compensate for my rash and too fast playstyle with my builds.

You also haven't made any real criticism apart from the ones I have already addressed. All your points are just statements with no arguments behind them. And yes, I've most likely already considered whatever you suggest to change, and decided this is better. However, I am currently not in the mood to explain literally everything behind this and just argumenting over this is making me regret even writing this short version

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:02 am 
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Spiderkin

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San0ix wrote:
You also haven't made any real criticism apart from the ones I have already addressed. All your points are just statements with no arguments behind them.
That's not how this works. Shalore is universally considered as a top tier race with ogre. If you think shalore somehow is bottom tier instead of best tier, then the burden of proof lies on your shoulders, not mine. Crazy claims need crazy good arguments to be believable. If I said I was kidnapped by aliens and made the Eternal Arch Emperor of The Milky Way then surely I would have to be the one to provide some proof of this -not the person who claims that I'm not the newly appointed emperor.

Also I provided several points in which you did not provide any counterpoints. I don't bother repeating them all again but here are a few of them in a bit more detailed version:

Ogre's last racial is very good, especially when combined with the second ogre racial talent and especially when you have high stats to feed that second talent. Not having the last talent alone costs you like over 1 K HP heroism slot or something similar in addition of the crazy inscription regeneration. Forcefield is the talent that turn your average defence into literal temporal invulnerability when used correctly and you think it's only worth 2 points. Survival is a pretty nice tree to go like at least 1-1-1-1 just for the evasion and charm mastery with right charms is amazing. If you have extra points then feel free to dump then on charm mastery. AM in general is considered weak on higher difficulties by pretty much any high level player (burden of proof again). These are all real points -whether you acknowledge them or not matters little.

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