ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:53 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:07 pm
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Just wondering what are you guys thoughts about the need of Rush on a Shalore Sun Paladin. Is really game changing? Going for crits and shields.

Guess it's ok to spend the category point since I'm only unlocking Guardian (besides the two infusions). Though I don't like the rest of the tree and the + speed skill is not needed because of Shalore.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:57 pm 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
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Not needed.
Sun Paladin is tanky enough and a movement infusion is more useful.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 791
It's nice to have, but honestly I wouldn't unlock the category just for Rush. The main draws are Perfect Strike, maybe Precise Strikes, and Blinding Speed for non-Shalore races. I unlocked it with the Wyrm Bile cat point on this Insane/RL almost-winner just for the crit chance and accuracy, but it's fairly low priority since Radiance already reduces enemies' defense and stealth/invisibility power.

You can get Rush as an activatable ability on boots, and you can also use Path of the Sun and/or Movement infusion for most of your gap-closing needs. Rush is nice to have, but definitely not required.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:44 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 12
Yeah, was felling weird unlocking a tree just for Rush. Could use the category point to unlock Harmony and get 5/5 on the second skill (better then raise the level of one already known?).

For that I would have to not max a skill. Could someone explain Bathe in Light to me? Really don't get it. Only good use is when my shield is going to fall so I use it to prevent it (even though shielding enemies around)?

BTW, I'm playing on Nightmare Roguelike.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:55 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am
Posts: 1439
yeah, bathe in light is mostly for delay, but also, because of the weapon of light, your shield is always stronger than of those around you.
also, its with it, you can keep your escorts alive, even while they are still under attack... for like 4 turns.

i believe that may be the only skill, other than healing touch, that can heal anyone other than yourself.

also, now that i think about it, it may have synergy with healing inversion...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:20 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 791
There are basically two uses for Bathe in Light:
1. Use it when you're taking a lot of damage and your other heal/shield skills are on cooldown. This can keep you alive in many situation where you would otherwise die. It has the disadvantage of also healing/shielding your enemies, but usually that's not a major issue.
2. Before engaging in combat, you can create a damage shield with Barrier or a Shielding rune, then use Bathe in Light to pump it to huge amounts. This strategy is more useful to ranged classes or Paladins on Insane+ difficulty.

Overall, I would say it's very much worth investing in BiL even on a melee character. You can probably get by without it on Nightmare, but it's a good tool to have available. If you find yourself not needing it, then you're probably kicking enough ass that you didn't need the points in a different talent anyway.

Wild-gift/Harmony is good, but as a Shalore Sun Paladin you probably don't have many free generics to invest there. Even getting 1/5/0/0 would probably require skimping on other important talents. I think the class has more wiggle room with class points than generic points, so I would rather just unlock class categories.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:12 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
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Meredoth wrote:
Yeah, was felling weird unlocking a tree just for Rush. Could use the category point to unlock Harmony and get 5/5 on the second skill (better then raise the level of one already known?).

For that I would have to not max a skill. Could someone explain Bathe in Light to me? Really don't get it. Only good use is when my shield is going to fall so I use it to prevent it (even though shielding enemies around)?

BTW, I'm playing on Nightmare Roguelike.


Elemental Harmony is not controllable. It was good for a previous version of the Paladin because of one low damage fire spell in a tree you no longer get. Now you have to hope that enemies do the kinds of damage that trigger it, and that they do the best types like fire first. I would skip it. It's great for fire archmages, but otherwise it's kind of meh.

Harmony isn't a useless tree, but but Elemental Harmony isn't why you'd be there. Healing Nexus is. It takes some, though no longer all, of the downside off using Bathe in Light in melee.

Combat Techniques is a great tree with a bunch of very strong skills. Rush has two big advantages over Path of the Sun. First, it's faster. With rush you hit rush and you instantly move to the target and make an attack and only then does your turn end. PotS you cast and your turn ends and then you move and attack and your turn ends again. Enemies won't be at the same locations when you move as when you start the process. That can be bad. The enemy can step away and make you take yet another turn getting to them or summon something between you and it and prevent you from attacking it at all. This can also be bad. Secondly, Rush has an independent cooldown of PotS. If you have multiple targets that need to die you can Path the first and then Rush the second when you wouldn't have been able to Path twice. You could use the talent on a movement infusion if you happen to have access to a good one, but chances are you'd cap out your inscription slots in the end anyways.

As a Shalore you're not in need of a generic sink so I'd unlock Combat Tech. Even just rush is probably better than increasing a category multiplier and with a sword, maxed perfect strike at least gives 8% crit power and 50% to procs with a shield or staff if the accuracy isn't going to be needed to help you hit. For 6 turns with no turn expenditure to activate. I think that's better than investing 5 points across shield techniques or two handed assault above the standard minimums and in the end you'll probably have an excess of class talents if you don't open another class tree. You could do Radiance, but unless I missed a major buff it's not very good.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:59 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:00 pm
Posts: 89
Effigy wrote:
Wild-gift/Harmony is good, but as a Shalore Sun Paladin you probably don't have many free generics to invest there. Even getting 1/5/0/0 would probably require skimping on other important talents. I think the class has more wiggle room with class points than generic points, so I would rather just unlock class categories.


I agree with this.

Re Rush: I think it's a very very good skill to have on a Sun Pala. Path of the Sun can then be reserved as an emergency escape, instead of a closer. The second skill in that tree is also very good. Instead of putting points into Cunning only for the crit chance, you can put them into Dex for accuracy and crit chance. The speed penalty isn't that much of an issue on a Sun Pala, what with the free Sun Ray attacks and the many sources of extra damage just from being attacked.

Re BiL: An important thing to note is that this skill can crit, and you should prioritise crit chance and multiplier anyway. So by activating it before going around a corner into a fight, you can enter tough fights with a shield of over 8k HP, and that's before activating your runes and other shields. It's also a great way to refuel in long fights. Since it increases your healing mod, you should activate it before using Healing Light for example. A judicious use of Path of the Sun here will help minimise benefits to enemies.

All of this is probably more pertinent on Insane than on Nightmare.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:25 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 12
Thanks all for the reply! Decided to not get Harmony. Will get Rush instead. :)

One more doubt, if it's ok. hehe I maxed Magic of the Eternals (+10% crit) and Sun's Vengeance (+12% crit). Now that Strength and Magic are maxed too, not sure what invest next. Was thinking about Cunning but don't want to get past 100% crit. Actually I guess around 80% - 85% would be pretty good. Any thoughts? If not Cunning, Dex or Cons? Constitution would be basically 1 pt for 5 health, while Dex gives defense and accuracy. Guess the last is better.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:35 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 791
Cunning is usually the best option. FYI, raising Cun by 50 points will give 15% crit chance. If you don't actually need the extra crit chance, then raising Dexterity is the next best option, especially if you plan to use Precise Strikes.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:55 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
Effigy wrote:
Cunning is usually the best option. FYI, raising Cun by 50 points will give 15% crit chance. If you don't actually need the extra crit chance, then raising Dexterity is the next best option, especially if you plan to use Precise Strikes.


I hold with doing both, at least on normal. Since you can get damage boosting from accuracy bonuses and stacking crit multiplier and stacking crit multiplier lacks the diminishing returns of physical power that extra crit rate is helpful unless you never fail to crit without it. Then there's the crit avoidance chance from dex. That's nice to have. If you're swimming in salmon rares and orange randarts that's less valuable, but by not needing to stack quite as much crit rate you may be able to itemize a bit more for something else.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:58 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 791
Crit multiplier doesn't have diminishing returns, but accuracy does, and by extension so do the accuracy crit bonuses. The crit chance from Cun doesn't have diminishing returns, but you only need 100% so whether Dex or Cun is better will largely depend on your equipment.

Note that my Insane char didn't even have 100% crit chance with 68 Cun, 5/5 MotE, 5/5 Sun's Vengeance, 5/5 Precise Strikes, and several crit chance items. If you skimp Cun to raise Dex, you're likely to have well below 100% crit chance, especially on Normal/Nightmare since the loot generally isn't as good.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:58 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
Effigy wrote:
Crit multiplier doesn't have diminishing returns, but accuracy does, and by extension so do the accuracy crit bonuses. The crit chance from Cun doesn't have diminishing returns, but you only need 100% so whether Dex or Cun is better will largely depend on your equipment.

Note that my Insane char didn't even have 100% crit chance with 68 Cun, 5/5 MotE, 5/5 Sun's Vengeance, 5/5 Precise Strikes, and several crit chance items. If you skimp Cun to raise Dex, you're likely to have well below 100% crit chance, especially on Normal/Nightmare since the loot generally isn't as good.


I meant precisely what I said. The equipment that boosts crit multiplier is often not the same equipment that boosts crit chance. For both cloaks and diggers the egos that boost crit multipler and the egos that boost crit chance are different. If you don't happen to get both on the same randart having more crit chance from stats and skills means being able to afford more crit multiplier from equipment given sufficient equipment selection to have access to a choice of egos but not enough to have every combination and that crit multiplier is not subject to diminishing returns. Crit mult and physical crit only appear together on light armor, weapons, and stave egos. Crit mult doesn't appear to be common on gold artifacts, but can appear without physical crit there as well. Physical crit will naturally hit 100% before spell crit even without Precise Strikes because non-bludgeon weapons tend to give a chunk of it but they're otherwise similarly common.

You don't skimp on cun to raise dex. You skimp on str. You need 36 after items earlyish for skills on a shield build (less on a two handed build) and a lot more after items late game for equipment prerequisites but dex/cun/mag builds work quite well for me. Staff builds have very little use for strength since staffs don't double dip it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:16 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:00 pm
Posts: 791
A staff build will have minimal Str, yes, but a non-staff build needs to max Str for damage. This is not so much for the phys power as it is for the direct damage scaling of the weapon.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:16 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:07 pm
Posts: 12
Didn't know that were differences between difficulties items. When I look on the character vault, I always look on Insane builds (since they should be better optimized). And in many of them the character had more then 100% crit chance. Since I'll not get those items to hit 100%, I'll bump Cun then. Thanks!

What are you guys thoughts about Ogres Vs Shalore? I made a Ogre till lvl 25 and then realized that Shield of Light extra attack was getting halved by Ogre's Constitution (didn't thought that would be considered a proc). Since I had maxed SoL and could not take out the points, I rerolled a Shalore, but the damage seems considerably lower then the Ogre.


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