ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:04 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
Disclaimer: This guide is based on having the Embers of Rage DLC and being able to take the Pain Enhancement System prodigy!
I will provide alternatives but they won't necessarily be in accordance to my personal build.


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Fire Drake-chan about to kill you with Flame Breath

http://te4.org/characters/51542/tome/760b3f4b-6c92-4563-a5ff-ceaa40a49419
I sure died a lot for a roguelike win :)
I hope Stunt-senpai notices me.

0) Introduction
1) Stats and explanations... WHY NO CON?!
2) Infusions
3) Anime Talents, spread and explanations
4) Prodigies
5) Tips, tricks, equipment, misc.


0. Introduction
This guide will not cover every variable but the ones I chose based on my experience and play style.
Summoner is a mid-ranged equilibrium-based caster that focuses entirely on summoning and managing summons. Summoner is quite strong in lower difficulties but falls off considerably by Insane+ due to how they scale in comparison to enemies, this guide will try to help better understand how to work around their shortcomings and hopefully give you a laugh.
I won't go into race selection because I only really play yeek and I honestly believe it doesn't have as much of an impact as the class and build itself, unless undead which is not applicable here.
Guide numbers might be a bit up in the air when compared with my build since some things aren't written in stone, and some small mistakes I might have made (like forgetting to get Agrimley's potion)
Think of summons as disposable, as they are strong enough but not durable enough to get overly attached to in the long run, as a summoner you lack abundance in a lot of tools, such as healing, mobility and defense, therefore what I believe is the best way to play them (at least on higher difficulties) is to not go full-in on summons with gear and prodigies, instead look into how you can improve your own survivability and utility and think of your summons after that.
Antimagic was buffed by the time 1.5 rolled around and could provide a valuable option for summoners, I have not personally tested it yet and it probably wouldn't be optimal for this build but it's much better than before and should scale better.
A recommended spread for this if you plan to go antimagic is 1-5/3/5/0-1. Keep in mind that losing arcane gear and runes might be a big hit to you depending on your build and playstyle. This makes fungus another choice, however I find that it would be too generic intensive as I prefer to take harmony instead, this also costs a category point and you most definitely want 2 unlocks and 2 infusions.


1) Stats
For summoner I like to max STR, WIL, CUN, rest DEX. Remember that you can max 3 stats at a base number of 60 and get a fourth to around 32 base, not including Wyrm Bile modifications.
WIL and CUN should be self-explanatory, they give you mindpower, WIL increases your equilibrium threshold (how high your equilibrium can go before it starts having a failure rate, IE 30 WIL = 30 Equilibrium threshold for 0% failure rate.)

CUN additionally increases your critical hit rates (summons can indeed crit) and max amount of summons you can have out at a time by 1 per 10 CUN (I believe the max is 11, as I was unable to have more out even at 140+ CUN)

STR is my personal choice partially thanks to Embers of Rage which I will explain in the prodigies section, because of Pain Enhancement System. STR also allows you to wear the heaviest and most protective armor while giving you some small bonuses in melee, armor is a very strong statistic in ToME and it must be paired with hardiness, which comes naturally with Armor Training when equipped with Heavy or Massive armor. The reason summoners want this beside the prodigy choice is that Equilibrium is a resource unaffected by fatigue, so there's no reason to pass up on armor.

DEX is the defensive stat of choice over CON because DEX decreases your chances to be critically hit, which is very often the real reason a character gets killed most of the time. CON gives very poor hp returns per point (4 hp per point) while a Heroism infusion can easily give you die at -900+ hp in the mid-lategame. HP gear is also incredibly cheap and common, you can usually get at the very least 40hp from a green lamp or cape which is equal to 10 points in CON, making CON a very poor choice in comparison.
For this build you want to slowly hit breakpoints in CUN as you go, focusing on WIL and STR, hoping to have 50+ total STR by level 30 for the prodigy of choice.
As of 1.5, CON has been buffed to give small amounts of healmod, however this probably doesn't make it desirable over DEX since summoner doesn't have a grand array of healing skills, but it's more worthy of being considered now.
Note: If lacking the corresponding DLC, it's acceptable to leave STR as a half-stat (32 base) and max DEX instead for a more defensive approach, replacing PES for another recommended prodigy, but this isn't the goal of this build/guide. You can also choose to max STR anyways and take Superpower for a similar effect to your mindpower and scaling, but it's an inferior choice.


2) Inscriptions
Summoner has a lot of shortcomings, they have very poor defenses, mobility, cleansing, and barely any healing, infusions will try to make up for these issues.
For my run I chose to run Wild, Movement, Regen, Heroism, Lightning. I recommend taking a second movement instead of Lightning.
Remember to look out for low cooldown on your infusions first and foremost, then on duration and values.

-Movement infusion: Perhaps the most important on a lot of things on insane+ because of its on-demand stun immunity. Not nearly as fundamental on lower difficulties but should be ran anyways to deal with movement issues on Summoner. 1 is absolutely necessary, 2 are heavily recommended.

-Wild infusion: One of the most basic of infusions, summoner has no real status clears so they should have one at hand, it also provides %resall for a few turns which can be a nice defensive bump. Can be swapped out based on immunities and prodigy choice, but is heavily recommended. Recommended Wild types are Phys, Phys/Mental, and Phys/Magical if confuse immune. Avoid Primal due to its high cooldown and unreliability (it heals only one out of the 3 possible types).

-Regeneration Infusion: One of the best ways of healing since it can heal damage as it's applied to you, directly counters most DoTs and scales well into lategame on Insane+. Heal in comparison scales very poorly and is generally outclassed by a good regen.

-Heroism: Heroism is one of my preferred defensive tools as it increases your effective HP by up to a double at times while increasing all your important stats, helping you survive burst damage while increasing your overall strength. Heroism is sort of like a shielding rune except it synergizes better with strong heals and regenerations.

-Lightning: A very niché defensive rune that can be very strong when used properly. Lightning runes help you avoid burst damage by completely negating two instances of damage. This synergizes with things like Bone Shield, Shielding runes, and damage avoidance such as Leaves Tide. Not arguably the best choice, but I find them fun and effective.

-Shielding: Can possibly replace Regeneration or occupy an extra slot if not for its rarity and generally high cooldowns. Helps protect against burst damage which is useful for a summoner.

-Phase Door: A potent tool if used properly, Phase Door can substitute a wild infusion in lategame Insane+ while also serving as a defensive repositioning tool, should probably be ignored for lower difficulties. Also an important note about Phase Door, IT IS NOT AN ESCAPE TOOL.

-Healing: Okay earlygame, quickly falls off. Use regeneration instead. Has a small synergy with phys wilds as it helps them cleanse more pressing statuses such as stun.

-Teleport Infusion: Use a psychoportation torque instead.

3) Anime Talents

Category Points
-Level 10: Wild-gift / Summoning (advanced)
-Level 20: Wild-gift / Augmentation (advanced)
-Level 36: Inscription Slot
-Wyrm Bile: Inscription Slot

Class Talents

Keep in mind that until you have 1/5 in Resilience, your summons will cap their durations at 4/5, so it's safe to leave them at that for a while before going for 5/5.
Wild-gift / Summoning (melee): 5/1-5/5/5
-Warhound-chan is your treasured childhood friend and neighbour, she has always looked after you in both good and bad times! Golem-kun has a crush on her and Minotaur-chan definitely will NOT lose to Warhound-chan in romance, so they all make a great destructive combination. Arguably your best melee summon as far as damage is concerned, reduces physical resistance with Grand Arrival, scales well into lategame, must max.

-Jelly-kun is the perverted best friend, he loves when you hit him, so he works best when you slap him with nature's equilibrium while calling him a pervert, to heal and regain equilibrium for yourself or put him next to Rimebark and Fire Drake for some healthy abuse. More points for more efficiency, proper Jelly abuse makes fungus equi regen unnecessary. Put extra points in Jelly if you're ending up starved for equilibrium. Reduces Nature resistance of enemies when summoned with Grand Arrival, good pair with Spider-chan for her poisons.

-Minotaur-chan is a bit of a Yandere, her laughter makes enemies confused (and sometimes you too, so keep distance!). She can cause confusion, stun, sunder weapon and sunder armor, making her a very good damage dealer, she has a crush on Golem-kun and they work great together. Is... is that axe real? Slows when summoned with Grand Arrival.

-Golem-kun is the reliable senpai that you look up to, he will daze things when summoned with Grand Arrival, can stun, AND use unstoppable while dealing a very good amount of damage, making him scale really well and making him a very beefy tank. Dropping Golem for daze and unstoppable, then Warhound for damage and res reduction and then Minotaur for damage and debuffs makes quick work of most things.

-Wild-gift / Summoning (distance): 1-5/1/5/5
-Ritch-chan is the energetic friend, she provides a very valuable aoe fire resistance debuff for her best friend Fire Drake-chan, and deals some decent damage, but is squishy and burns out fast, therefore more than one point isn't necessary since her main use is the res debuff. Falls off after the earlygame compared to everyone else, but can prove to be an useful source of damage in some situations.

-Hydra-chan is the unreliable underclassman that doesn't excel in any particular thing, she wishes you would notice her, but in the end she remains a background character. She is too shy, and will die out of shame while apologizing if she hurts you or your allies. She will also apologize for apologizing. Refuses to use skills when allies are in range, making her a very unreliable and situational pick. 1 point for the rest of the tree.

-Rimebark-chan is the cool and serious girl who will put up a very good fight if tested. Scales well and deals a good amount of damage while having the ability to freeze enemies which is a godsend defensively. CAN and WILL hit you, so be mindful of your positioning to use her properly, stay out of her range. Works well with Jelly-kun for equilibrium regen.

-Fire Drake-chan is the tsundere student council president, sometimes seen with other drakeling student council members who sadly "help" you reach summon cap very easily but don't offer much. Fire Drake-chan deals a very good amount of damage both in burst and over time, and she can deal with virtually anything when coupled with the resistance reduction from Warhound and Ritch. She's very proud. She CAN and WILL hit you with her flame breath, so try not to stand in front of her, she doesn't like that very much.

Wild-gift / Summoning (utility): 3-5/5/3-5/1
-Turtle-chan is the mature onee-san that likes to look after everyone with a kind smile, she will heal everyone with grand arrival and protect her friends by drawing aggro to herself and increasing her defense with shell shield. Also gives 15%? Resall to party members in range when detonated. Scales well and tanks well, 3-5 points recommended.

-Spider-chan is the silent, seemingly-emotionless girl that watches and supports you from a distance, she will pin enemies with webs and use pretty strong poisons, she dabbles in melee from time to time, is she a ninja? Has situational times of usefulness, overall scales very well and very useful, but AI is whacky and it's a single-target ranged character, it can be hard to make good use of it with the short range and alongside tanks and melees. Can make good use of jelly's nature resistance drop.

-Franctic Summoning will help you forget about equilibrium failure for a few turns, and help you set up a team really quickly. 3-5 points for duration.
-Summon Control is a 1 point wonder that lets you switch control to one of your summons. This should be done in situations where you need to open a vault or a chest and don't want to do so with your frail body, which should be left safely placed behind a corner. Golem is recommended for this as he has an above-average duration and can stun and unstoppable, sometimes taking care of threats by himself.

Wild-gift / Summoning (advanced): 5/3/4/1-5
-Master Summoner: 30% CDR on all summons, self-explanatory.
-Grand Arrival: Provides all your summons with useful AoE effects when summoned. 3 points for range.
-Nature's Cycle: 100% chance to reduce CDs for Rage, Detonate, and Wild Summon by 3. Caps in usefulness at 4 points.
-Wild Summon: Heavily situational buffs to your summons for a few turns. Not strictly necessary, but can be useful. Points for duration.

Wild-gift / Summoning (augmentation): 1/1-3/1/1-3
-Rage: Bad talent, increases the stats of one summon by a negligible amount. Not instant, doesn't scale spectacularly. 1 point.
-Detonate: 1 point wonder, detonates a summon to grant an extra effect. Damage abilities scale badly. Utility is very good, such as the friendly shield from Turtle-chan, freezing cold from Rimebark-chan, and CDR from Spider-chan. Points for range, 1 is enough, but there are situations where a bit more range is nice.
-Resilience: Scales badly, even at levels 4-5 I was only getting an extra turn on summons, which was the same as 1. Negligible amounts of CON won't help much. 1 pointer.
-Phase Summon: Useful repositioning and sometimes escape skill with a high cooldown. Doesn't need line of sight. 1 pointer since cooldown isn't reduced and doesn't provide anything other than more turns in 50% evasion, however an extra two points might prove useful here.

Generic Talents
Race / Racials: Race dependant, but my build is based around a 1/1-2/5/1 yeek spread, will add some leeway in some skills to allow for flexibility.

Cunning / Survival: 1/5/1/1-5. Thief escorts should contribute to saving generics from Device Mastery. Any extras can go into Heightened Senses for infravision radius. Devise Mastery lowers the cooldown of charms and energy cost of usable artifacts, a very powerful skill that allows you to expand your limited amount of options. It's great on everyone, but especially so on Summoner due to their lack of abilities, therefore should be maxed.
As of 1.5, the survival tree has been reworked, it's mostly the same except the last skill could potentially be worth 5 points based on your spread for more survivability, the tree now also has track which is a very powerful tool for high level summoner play.

Technique / Combat training: 3-5/3-5/0/0/0. Thick Skin is good enough at 3 generics in generic-starved builds as it provides 10% reduction for 3 points, 5 is still recommended, however. 3 points in Armor training is how many you need to start wearing Massive armor, the differences between level 3 and 5 armor training aren't very big, therefore it can be left at 3 for generic-starved builds, but 5 is recommended for more protection.

Wild-gift / Call of the wild: 1/3-5/1/0-4 Nature's Touch spread dependant on escorts and max HP, at least 3 is recommended. Nature's Balance is either 0 or 4 because it's a situational skill, and at level 4 it will cooldown your abilities of up to TIER 4 (meaning their placement in the tree, such as Fire Drake), therefore more than 4 points is useless.

Wild-gift / Mindstar mastery: 5/1/5/1 . Psiblades improve all the relevant stats from mindstars and help you hit really hard in melee if necessary. Leaves tide is one of the strongest defensive skills in the game and provides both you AND your summons with 40-50%+ all damage avoidance in the endgame. Nature's equilibrium is a 1 point wonder that its hard and heals you while restoring equilibrium, synergizes nicely with Jelly-kun. (Acquired from Zigur for 500 gold and upgraded for 750 gold)

Wild-gift / Harmony: 1/5/1-5/0-3 (unlocked upon eating Sandworm Queen Heart) The first skill helps you combat poisons and diseases a little more effectively by turning them into small heals and regens.
The third skill, One With Nature, helps you get more out of your infusions, heavily depends on your generic spread, not necessary, but a very good addition.
I heavily recommend 5 points in Elemental Harmony as it's very easy to dip in your Fire Drake's fire AoE for huge global boosts, it's very easy to control and provides a very big and necessary advantage for Summoner.
The last skill (Healing Nexus) can be ignored on difficulties below Insane, and even on Insane it can be unnecessary.

4) Prodigies
This build is based on taking Pain Enhancement System (also known as PES) as it increases all your stats based on STR for a duration upon scoring a critical hit. This allows you and your summons to scale much more gracefully while offering the defensive boosts of DEX and CON as well. It improves everything you do, by a very nice amount. Heavily recommended. Note that you need to own the DLC Embers of Rage to take this prodigy. I also took Spine of the World for extra defenses, since I reached confusion immunity fairly early (thanks yeeks!)
Pros: Works great on characters where STR isn't a main requirement. Improves absolutely everything you do do, both defensive and offensive. Makes your summons scale much better. Helps you meet all stat requirements with minimal effort
Cons: Need to have Embers of Rage and deal with gunslingers and sawbutchers. Nerfed recently to have less uptime, but this shouldn't affect summoner too badly as they can easily retreat and wait for cooldown if needed.

Draconic Will
Pros: Prevents all status effects for 5 turns
Cons: 33% uptime

Spine of the World
Pros: Prevents all physical status effects for 5 turns after one is applied, no cooldown. Synergizes with immunities and items that help you easily cleanse mental effects, such as Mnemonic or Wintertide Phial.
Cons: Only physical effects, recommended to be confusion immune.

Swift Hands
Pros: Very strong prodigy which allows you to prepare for virtually anything and abuse items which can be really strong
Cons: The most tedious prodigy in the game

Windtouched Speed
Pros: MORE GLOBAL SPEED. Stacks well with the Elemental Harmony fire bonus. Gives more CDR that you probably don't need!
Cons: That's it, a bit boring!

Cauterize
Pros: Provides very valuable oneshot and burst protection
Cons: Need to cast spells, summoner heals and defensive tools may not be enough to make full use of it

Superpower
Pros: Recently buffed, increases your mindpower based on 60% of your STR, making both you and your summons scale better, additionally makes you hit even harder in melee.
Cons: Pretty much worse than PES for the purpose of this guide, but mentioned for those without Embers of Rage.

Through The Crowd
Pros: Recently buffed to provide its effects to both you and your party members, now gives 3% global speed per friendly up to a max of 15%, and was fixed so detonate works wit hit, a stronger choice than before.
Cons: Will prevent you from building up global speed easily with fire drake's AoE and Harmony, and will render you unable to hurt Jelly with nature's equilibrium which can be a very useful source of heals and equilibrium, not recommended if you plan to make use of those strategies.


Eye of the Tiger (meh)
Pros: Lowers cooldowns EVEN FURTHER
Cons: Summoner isn't in dire need of lowered cooldown, Master Summoner, Nature's Cycle and Nature's Balance takes care of this well enough. To top it off they have a very healthy talent rotation most of the time. I recommend a more defensive approach instead.

Blighted Summoning (don't)
Pros: Provides very situational and weak magical skills to your summons, generally underwhelming
Cons: Actually scales with magic, so meeting the requirements with items won't get you much out of it. You also spend a valuable prodigy on making solely your summons better when you need it for yourself.

5) Tips, tricks, equipment, misc.
Summoner is a class that spends most of its time positioning itself optimally and defensively, using terrain to their advantage, therefore movement infusions are heavily recommended. You'll want to build defensively focusing on armor, HP, healmod and resistances, immunities are nice when reachable. For damage types you'll want to look primarily for Fire and Physical boosts, some Cold (for Rimebark) and Nature (if you use spider a lot) on the side can be useful. Mindpower and Mental Crit are good things to have a lot of as they help your summons, they can crit and scale with mindpower. Surprisingly, summons also scale with Critical Multiplier when they do crit, so this is possibly a very relevant stat!
Equilibrium on-hit recovery is useful but is outdone by proper Jelly abuse. On-summon heals from equipment can help your summons live through their duration even in dire circumstances.
By the endgame you can make healthy use of all your summons except hydra, so keep that in mind when looking at the point recommendations. In most fights you'll open with a tank (generally golem) followed by warhound for resistance debuffing, or flamespitter into drake. Using Jelly along with Rimebark will allow you to do good damage while defensively freezing enemies, Jelly will be hit by the friendly fire and recover Equilibrium for you. Turtle will generally be dropped later for AoE heals and tank for a few turns before being turned into %resall by Detonate. You can also use Jelly as a target for Nature's Equilibrium by hitting it yourself for an extra heal. Consider your enemies' resistances and how you want to approach the fight as you use your summons. Make sure to read up on Grand Arrival and Detonate on their tooltips since they're both things you rely heavily on, I mentioned the more important effects but won't mention them all to avoid bloat.
Track is VERY GOOD on summoners when they can find it, not to scout like crazy, but to keep an eye on how dangerous fights are going without having to be in a bad spot. I had the talent and an item with track on it on insane and it wasn't enough at times.
Summoner is a class that can and should make good use of charms and artifacts with activable effects, which generally have a separate cooldown but still affected by Charm Mastery.
A few notable mentions I used or ran into in my run:
Look for items like Mnemonic and Wintertide Phial for mental effect cleansing.
Torques and totems for defensive purposes.
Firewall Wands and Scale Mail of Kroltar help you easily manage Elemental Harmony's global speed bonus by hitting yourself with weak fire damage.
Rod of Spydric Poison scales well thanks to PES and makes use of Jelly-kun's nature res lowering.
Aletta's Diadem works wonders with Charm Mastery and Summoner, can be used twice in a row before having to wait for a recharge, then a few turns until it has enough energy to be used again. Can hit things even while behind your summons, Confusion and Brainlock are really strong.
Eden's Guile, Boots of the Hunter, and Wanderer's Rest. Eden's Guile helps you stack global even higher which gets ridiculous at some point, and it scales with CUN very well. Boots of the Hunter and Wanderer's Rest offer some extra much-needed on-demand mobility.
Amethyst of the Sanctuary can provide an on-demand damage shield. Thermal Focus provides some very nice Cold and Fire boosts for your summons.
Mindstars of Sand enable you to use burrow, which works really well on some maps when coupled with movement infusions. They also provide physical boosts for your melee summons.
Amulets of mastery that improve your summoning trees can make a very big difference.

Spellhunt Remnants if you have no runes or spells getting in the way, Gloves of Dispersion otherwise. EXTREMELY NECESSARY, my last fight took literal hours because I lacked these, and I scraped by at times. Summoner has no way to remove sustains otherwise.

There's a lot to add to that list but they're a few examples of things you can make heavy use of, try to find your own!

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"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin


Last edited by Sheila on Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:55 am, edited 24 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:11 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
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Quality guide. I'm not sold on Lightning over second Movement but otherwise not bad. Also you underrate Spider and overrate Jelly a bit imo since Jelly doesn't scale well with more points and Spider's Spit Poison scales great.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:15 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
bpat wrote:
Quality guide. I'm not sold on Lightning over second Movement but otherwise not bad. Also you underrate Spider and overrate Jelly a bit imo since Jelly doesn't scale well with more points and Spider's Spit Poison scales great.

Yeah I did point out Lightning was a silly personal choice, I will recommend dual movement :)
More points in jelly help you not be Equi starved in the long run with duration, but not fully necessary, that's why it's 1-5. Spider had some moments where it was great and some moments where it was ??? I liked it personally, and it did well, but not fully necessary, so it's a bit up in the air. It's tricky to use because of melees and summoning ranges, but does synergize nicely with Jelly and the spydric poison rod, will clarify and revise those points.

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"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin


Last edited by Sheila on Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:25 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:30 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 7:00 am
Posts: 569
Great guide. Actually explains the reasoning for choices. Congrats on the win!

Also anime summons are the best. I'm going to have to let summoners name their summons.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:02 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm
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10/10 would anime.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:18 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
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Few small revisions, added disclaimer in red in case of people playing without the Embers DLC, and a few extra lines also in red to indicate a similar build choice or an alternative.

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"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:15 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:46 pm
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Very funny and helpful guide, i lol ed a lot while reading. Why did you still take Augmentation category even though you find all 4 skills underwhelming though? That part confused me a little. Maybe take something like Tinkers instead? (I admit i am a big fan of tinkers and overrate it) Gz again for this well written guide!

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:48 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
posetcay wrote:
Very funny and helpful guide, i lol ed a lot while reading. Why did you still take Augmentation category even though you find all 4 skills underwhelming though? That part confused me a little. Maybe take something like Tinkers instead? (I admit i am a big fan of tinkers and overrate it) Gz again for this well written guide!

Thanks :)
Didn't say all 4 are underwhelming though! Detonate and Phase summon are both really good and very necessary at times, they just don't scale great with talent levels and are mostly 1 point wonders but can go a little higher for radius and duration. Detonate is core IMO and provides a lot of helpful utility but might seem bad if you want it for the damage. 50% evasion has times when it can be really useful on tanks. The other 2 talents are pretty bad but 1 pt in resilience at the very least gets you a bit more duration (when your summons don't die right away anyways), rage is pretty useless all-around.

I like tinkers personally but it hinges 100% on finding the escort or scumming for it, and I don't like scumming for escorts. I wasn't particularly lacking in the generics area either and as a class that won't have spare slots for steam generation and isn't heavily reliant on weaponry it feels like a bit of a wasted effort. I dislike needing a steam tank to get the most out of tinkers in general, and yeah they're a bit over-hyped, injectors are nice but not really better than infusions unless you start prepared to use them, and even then only situationally so (imo nothing tinkers can do beats regen, movement, heroism or a second movement anyways, wilds have times where they're better since they can dual and get up to 30-40% resall in my experience)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:44 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 493
thx for the guide but you fail to mention which anime summon is the most Goku ) :

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
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Mankeli wrote:
thx for the guide but you fail to mention which anime summon is the most Goku ) :

goku is bad anime so he's not here


Small edits to update the guide for 1.5, changes mostly don't impact the guide but tried to cover some things in it. Let me know if I missed something.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
1. PES and Superpower - worth stacking, or diminishing returns too significant?
2. How attached are you to the strategies Through the Crowd would rule out? Elemental Harmony for Summoner vs global speed buff to self and all summons - it would seem like the latter would be very strong, but I haven't played on Insane.
3. Swift Hands - does it add much tedium when already on Insane (which, without autoexplore as a good option, seems highly tedious)?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Snarvid wrote:
1. PES and Superpower - worth stacking, or diminishing returns too significant?

Worth stacking but Summoner doesn't have all too much defense so you could probably benefit some more from Cauterize/DWill. Imo SP > PES now but that's debatable.

Snarvid wrote:
3. Swift Hands - does it add much tedium when already on Insane (which, without autoexplore as a good option, seems highly tedious)?

Uh autoexplore is fine in Insane outside of High Peak, Vor Armory/Briagh (both are short anyway) and maybe t2s if you're very weak at that point. If you want to run Swift Hands go for it but unless you're Mex you probably won't enjoy it.


e: which summon is the most Cory In The House?

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<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
Snarvid wrote:
1. PES and Superpower - worth stacking, or diminishing returns too significant?
2. How attached are you to the strategies Through the Crowd would rule out? Elemental Harmony for Summoner vs global speed buff to self and all summons - it would seem like the latter would be very strong, but I haven't played on Insane.
3. Swift Hands - does it add much tedium when already on Insane (which, without autoexplore as a good option, seems highly tedious)?

1. I figure it may be worth stacking? But by the time you're on Insane you'll definitely need some defensive tools instead of more mindpower scaling, either SP or PES is fine but I wouldn't take both. The reason I like PES is that it gives you stats that are defensive for you and not just mindpower for summons.
2. Summons die in like 2 turns in lategame insane so the global speed for them is nigh irrelevant. I'm concerned about staying alive and receiving a much more important speed buff to myself, summons are disposable as a summoner, that's why I advise against going full-in on summons with prodigies. I also used the nature's equilibrium on jelly tactic extensively all along the game. But like I also pointed it, it's a bit more worthy of consideration now, personally I still wouldn't, although I guess it can be toggled if you feel like micromanaging.
3. Like Ster said, you can autoexplore fine on insane, this is a misconception and misinformation that needs to stop being spread, you're probably thinking of madness, but yes insane isn't tedious most of the time and swift hands is possibly one of the most tedious things in the game :P Feel free to take it and experiment with it, it's great if you like stashing things and switching each time you might need them, but it gets to the point where it's not fun at all for most of us.

@ster I don't watch bad western meme shows so I don't know!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
I've not tried Insane yet, so I'll step back from that debate without primary source material. Just assuming truth of what I was told. Also haven't used Swift Hands, so I don't know how aggravating it could be except that enough people hate it to make a mod killing it.

Also haven't tried any of the Dex based prodigies, but find PES confusing because it potentially opens up any prodigy choice so I have a great many more options to consider than I'm used to. Wasn't sure whether Wild Summon/Grand Arrival/Detonate Turtle would benefit enough from massed Mindpower stacking to count as a significant defense upgrade. I do (or did, way back, if it hasn't changed in perhaps .4 worth of updates) like Draconic Will, so there's always that, and I'm running a Halfling so I'd guess I'll have enough Mindpower to try out the survival boost from it.

Deedo? Parn?

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:41 am 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
Snarvid wrote:
I've not tried Insane yet, so I'll step back from that debate without primary source material. Just assuming truth of what I was told. Also haven't used Swift Hands, so I don't know how aggravating it could be except that enough people hate it to make a mod killing it.

Also haven't tried any of the Dex based prodigies, but find PES confusing because it potentially opens up any prodigy choice so I have a great many more options to consider than I'm used to. Wasn't sure whether Wild Summon/Grand Arrival/Detonate Turtle would benefit enough from massed Mindpower stacking to count as a significant defense upgrade. I do (or did, way back, if it hasn't changed in perhaps .4 worth of updates) like Draconic Will, so there's always that, and I'm running a Halfling so I'd guess I'll have enough Mindpower to try out the survival boost from it.

Deedo? Parn?

Thanks.

I wouldn't take the "mod killing it" for swift hands seriously, as the maker themselves has said it's a joke addon and they confirmed to me personally that they never took the prodigy at all, a bit of a clown if you ask me :)

As far as PES is concerned, the mindpower has nothing to do with the talents you mentioned for the most part, but the fact that mindpower makes summons in general scale better and have better stats, which starts being a problem otherwise by the time insane rolls around. It's defensive because PES increases all your stats except STR by 50% of your STR, meaning this gives you defensive stats like DEX and CON, and to a minor extent WIL. DEX reduces the chances that you'll be critically hit, this is a BIG reduction to damage, as opposed to popular low-level player misinformation, what actually kills you most often are critical hits and not necessarily a lack of CON (HP returns are meager) or race Life Rating (doesn't impact that heavily). CON provides a small pillow of extra HP and healmod, this is welcome in this case of course since you're not spending points on it. WIL and CUN will provide said mindpower and additionally you'll gain a higher equilibrium failure threshold from higher WIL which can amount to defensive or offensive based on what you need to use. CUN is more offensively oriented as it helps crits, however keep in mind summons CAN crit which makes them more powerful and this is always welcome as well. Overall PES gives you a lot of things you want, but feel free to experiment. There's a lot of prodigies I haven't covered mostly because there's a lot that aren't worth considering either because you're a summoner or because it's not good overall.

The recent PES nerfs hurts uptime quite a bit but I'll see about having it turned into an activable so more mileage can be gotten out of it, like how dwill works currently.

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