ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
Hello everyone, recently picked up ToME from the Rougelike Sale on Steam yesterday and I'm enjoying the game quite a bit but it's pretty overwhelming at first. I've tried 2 runs with a Archer and 1 with a Summoner (Summoner being my best getting to level 19) and now I'm looking at other classes to play/try. Wyrmic seems like a cool class to play and according to the tier list I looked at seemed to be good? so I decided to research and look into it.

I'm not sure how to start a Wyrmic, I've looked at some guides and information but a lot of it is outdated but from what I've gathered (correct me if I'm wrong) they seem to be a melee/caster hybrid and can be built a variety of ways. Since I'm new I was thinking of a more survival build such as a 1hander/shield with a caster role using the breaths as the main source of damage but the fact that most breaths don't unlock until 12 I'm not sure what to do prior to that and was hoping to get some advice.

So to sum it all up I got the following questions -

1. Is Sword and Board viable to use when mainly specializing in breaths?

2. Which breaths are bad? I saw the guide on a Breath mained Wyrmic but near the end pages of the thread people were suggesting to only level 4 breaths since you can rotate them. From what I read it seems Venom and Lightning at bad?

3. What do you level/use prior to level 12 and before you get your breaths?

4. I heard STR scales with Breaths can someone confirm?

Thats about it, I appreciate any help/answers or advice you guys could give. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:24 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:39 pm
Posts: 80
1: yes, you would mainly be using the weapon and shield for their passive stats, so any combination will work really provided they have the stats you need.

2: It was mentioned in the other thread that the fire and venom breaths are the worst, because the whole breath can be resisted, as opposed to the other breaths where only the secondary effect gets resisted. Im not sure how this works with the fire breath, but the venom breath is a poison, so it will never work on poison immune enemies for example. Personally i mentioned the ice and lightning breath, but on second thought i think the other guy was right. Personally i also dislike the damage over time aspect of the fire and venom ones, so there is that to consider as well.

3: lvl 1-3 you can use acidic spray coupled with just attacking enemies with your weapon, equipment with thorns damage can also be a big help. lvl 4 and up bellowing roar is very good, corrosive mist is also not bad.

4: thats right, just did some crude testing and it seems to scale 2.5~ dmg per point in str with eventual diminishing returns, not entirely sure on that though. the formula can be found at http://te4.org/wiki/Scaling#cTStD if youre into math, im not :)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:51 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
anathema wrote:
1: yes, you would mainly be using the weapon and shield for their passive stats, so any combination will work really provided they have the stats you need.

2: It was mentioned in the other thread that the fire and venom breaths are the worst, because the whole breath can be resisted, as opposed to the other breaths where only the secondary effect gets resisted. Im not sure how this works with the fire breath, but the venom breath is a poison, so it will never work on poison immune enemies for example. Personally i mentioned the ice and lightning breath, but on second thought i think the other guy was right. Personally i also dislike the damage over time aspect of the fire and venom ones, so there is that to consider as well.

3: lvl 1-3 you can use acidic spray coupled with just attacking enemies with your weapon, equipment with thorns damage can also be a big help. lvl 4 and up bellowing roar is very good, corrosive mist is also not bad.

4: thats right, just did some crude testing and it seems to scale 2.5~ dmg per point in str with eventual diminishing returns, not entirely sure on that though. the formula can be found at http://te4.org/wiki/Scaling#cTStD if youre into math, im not :)


Awesome thanks! What about stat distribution? It seems Str/Willpower seem to be the focus? but if I'm using sword/board is willpower needed since breath scale with Str? I plan on throwing some in constitution mainly since I'm new.

Also, I recently found out about the Character Vault and found this http://te4.org/characters/55642/tome/b6 ... ded5a4dd32

Would you say thats a decent guide to follow in terms of Talents?

Edit - Just realized I need willpower to level my skills.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:29 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:06 pm
Posts: 279
The most recent update to ToME include a fair bit of love for wyrmics, so you may find some advice is outdated--not helpful, I know! One big change was to the Ice Walls talent, which is part of why wyrmic is rated so highly on that tier list. It's not a bad class without it, but Ice walls is an abusably good skill at the moment.

Here's some general advice to get you started:

Your instinct for stats is good. Almost every class will want to level the stats that unlock or scale its skills. If a skill mentions weapon damage, you'll also want to level stats that support your weapon of choice--strength for 1- or 2-handed weapons, for instance, which you can check in the weapon's description near the top (it'll say something like "100% strength" scaling, which means a complicated scaling function uses 100% of your strength score). If a skill mentions physical power, strength will help that, too. (just like will and cunning benefit mindpower, and magic benefits spellpower)

Constitution is a divisive stat: some people will say it isn't worth it for the small boost to hitpoints and saves, and that you should be getting those from your gear. Other people like the boost to survivability. Try things out, but I recommend not ranking it too far above things that get you more skills.

You generally want fewer levels in more talents, as a rule. A lot of talents only add a small damage boost, following diminishing returns, with more levels. Any skill that scales off of your stats will get a lot of boost from your gear, so that small bonus may not be worth much after the first few levels! But pay attention to skills that add effects at certain levels, or change range or radius, or add passive bonuses like the first skill in every wyrmic tree (a cool new boost from the latest update). Also, being stunned is a common status effect that shuts off a number of skills at random. Having more buttons is one way to avoid getting crippled before you have ways to deal with that.

Lastly, and most importantly, the in-game chat is probably the best resource there is for ToME. A lot of advice elsewhere is scattered or outdated, so if you have a question asking the chat can be the fastest way to get it answered. ('h' opens the chat, 'space' sends a message, if you haven't trawled through the hotkeys yet)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:34 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:39 pm
Posts: 80
you pretty much just need enough willpower to level up your skills, in theory you could carry around a lot of equipment with +will to level up your abilities, to save points, though that can be annoying to keep track of, and i never do it

in terms of skills to level, you will have many more points than you need to max 4 breaths, so you can experiment a little if you want, however if you want to be efficient in early levels i recommend only maxing bellowing roar until lvl 12, then leveling 2 breaths simultaneously.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:57 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
twas Brillig wrote:
The most recent update to ToME include a fair bit of love for wyrmics, so you may find some advice is outdated--not helpful, I know! One big change was to the Ice Walls talent, which is part of why wyrmic is rated so highly on that tier list. It's not a bad class without it, but Ice walls is an abusably good skill at the moment.

Here's some general advice to get you started:

Your instinct for stats is good. Almost every class will want to level the stats that unlock or scale its skills. If a skill mentions weapon damage, you'll also want to level stats that support your weapon of choice--strength for 1- or 2-handed weapons, for instance, which you can check in the weapon's description near the top (it'll say something like "100% strength" scaling, which means a complicated scaling function uses 100% of your strength score). If a skill mentions physical power, strength will help that, too. (just like will and cunning benefit mindpower, and magic benefits spellpower)

Constitution is a divisive stat: some people will say it isn't worth it for the small boost to hitpoints and saves, and that you should be getting those from your gear. Other people like the boost to survivability. Try things out, but I recommend not ranking it too far above things that get you more skills.

You generally want fewer levels in more talents, as a rule. A lot of talents only add a small damage boost, following diminishing returns, with more levels. Any skill that scales off of your stats will get a lot of boost from your gear, so that small bonus may not be worth much after the first few levels! But pay attention to skills that add effects at certain levels, or change range or radius, or add passive bonuses like the first skill in every wyrmic tree (a cool new boost from the latest update). Also, being stunned is a common status effect that shuts off a number of skills at random. Having more buttons is one way to avoid getting crippled before you have ways to deal with that.

Lastly, and most importantly, the in-game chat is probably the best resource there is for ToME. A lot of advice elsewhere is scattered or outdated, so if you have a question asking the chat can be the fastest way to get it answered. ('h' opens the chat, 'space' sends a message, if you haven't trawled through the hotkeys yet)


I noticed there was a chat but when I enabled it it was mostly just spam of people either dying or picking up loot and didn't see much conversation, is there a channel I need to join?

anathema wrote:
you pretty much just need enough willpower to level up your skills, in theory you could carry around a lot of equipment with +will to level up your abilities, to save points, though that can be annoying to keep track of, and i never do it

in terms of skills to level, you will have many more points than you need to max 4 breaths, so you can experiment a little if you want, however if you want to be efficient in early levels i recommend only maxing bellowing roar until lvl 12, then leveling 2 breaths simultaneously.



Yeah, I gave it a run and got wrecked in the face but I think thats mostly my fault since I went a bit to far in a dungeon I probably shouldn't have. I'm still learning what places I should tackle first and what not.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:09 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:06 pm
Posts: 279
Ah, yeah. The main stream of chat is pretty overwhelming, you can filter things out in the options menu. It's easier to follow if you expand it, but if you reduce the amount of stuff it shows you can usually follow it even in the tiny view.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:16 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
Doing a second run, haven't died and and I'm level 15. This is fun!!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:13 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
I would say your prime stats should be strength, willpower, and cunning. Fungus reduces your need for a large health pool and you're not bad anyways. Strength runs your breaths and weapon damage. Willpower effects how high your equilibrium can get before you start suffering a failure rate and your mindpower. Cunning effects how often you critical and your mindpower.

I would go two handed over sword and board. Your weapon using talents will hit harder, you won't have to worry about block, and you'll save talent points since the two handed tree is all one point wonders while the shield offense tree has riposte wanting heavier investment.

Before you get breaths and get them to 4 or so you'll use your weapon. You'll use stunning blow or shield bash, swallow, and either wing buffet or ice claw with lightning speed as a closer (to be used as an escape when you get enough breaths up to decent range to not need a closer) and possibly acid spit as a ranged opener, though it's not very good.

I wouldn't overfocus on breaths. Wyrmics have some of the best utility talents in the game and it's probably better to have enough points for them than to have more than three maxed breaths. Especially since a heavily invested ice wall lets you put a ranged fight on pause while your breaths come off cooldown and in a short rang fight your weapon talents can fill out your cooldown schedule.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:06 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
Atarlost wrote:
I would say your prime stats should be strength, willpower, and cunning. Fungus reduces your need for a large health pool and you're not bad anyways. Strength runs your breaths and weapon damage. Willpower effects how high your equilibrium can get before you start suffering a failure rate and your mindpower. Cunning effects how often you critical and your mindpower.

I would go two handed over sword and board. Your weapon using talents will hit harder, you won't have to worry about block, and you'll save talent points since the two handed tree is all one point wonders while the shield offense tree has riposte wanting heavier investment.

Before you get breaths and get them to 4 or so you'll use your weapon. You'll use stunning blow or shield bash, swallow, and either wing buffet or ice claw with lightning speed as a closer (to be used as an escape when you get enough breaths up to decent range to not need a closer) and possibly acid spit as a ranged opener, though it's not very good.

I wouldn't overfocus on breaths. Wyrmics have some of the best utility talents in the game and it's probably better to have enough points for them than to have more than three maxed breaths. Especially since a heavily invested ice wall lets you put a ranged fight on pause while your breaths come off cooldown and in a short rang fight your weapon talents can fill out your cooldown schedule.


Valid point, I currently have Corrosive and Ice Breath maxed with Lightning being my third breath. I was debating on maxing Ice Armor and Ice Wall after that for as you said utility and survivability. I was not aware Cunning was good for Wyrmics, I'll check it out. As for not using sword and board I don't know how I feel on that. I wouldn't say I'm bad but I'm still learning thats for sure. Currently level 21 with 2 deaths (with 3 lifes) so I have gotten caught with my pants down twice (those god damn zombie bunnies zergin' the shit outta me lol).

I just gotta take it a bit slower I think but I'm still figuring out where I should and shouldn't be lol.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:49 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
xSeQueL wrote:
Valid point, I currently have Corrosive and Ice Breath maxed with Lightning being my third breath. I was debating on maxing Ice Armor and Ice Wall after that for as you said utility and survivability. I was not aware Cunning was good for Wyrmics, I'll check it out. As for not using sword and board I don't know how I feel on that. I wouldn't say I'm bad but I'm still learning thats for sure. Currently level 21 with 2 deaths (with 3 lifes) so I have gotten caught with my pants down twice (those god damn zombie bunnies zergin' the shit outta me lol).

I just gotta take it a bit slower I think but I'm still figuring out where I should and shouldn't be lol.


Sword and board isn't bad, but it's a little more expensive and requires you to be in melee to get any benefit because you can't usually riposte against distant enemies and wyrmics have several ranged melee talents. Wyrmics are pretty good at not being in melee if they don't want to be. Earthquake, Wing Buffet, and Tornado all offer knockback, Ice Wall prevents enemies from approaching while stuff is on cooldown, and Ice Breath slows. You can avoid weapon based non-melee talents, but I'm not sure how practical that is. You can also go for a melee build and mostly ignore the breaths and go for Combat Techniques to get an extra closer. Basically choose your range. If you want to fight at range go two handed. If you want to melee go with a shield (though Fearless Cleave is really good for getting into melee on a two handed build). If you want to really push long range combat at the expense of losing most of your melee capability go for mindstars.

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n. 1. technocracy. 2. government by the numbers. 3. rule by people with the longest fingers.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:30 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
Atarlost wrote:
xSeQueL wrote:
Valid point, I currently have Corrosive and Ice Breath maxed with Lightning being my third breath. I was debating on maxing Ice Armor and Ice Wall after that for as you said utility and survivability. I was not aware Cunning was good for Wyrmics, I'll check it out. As for not using sword and board I don't know how I feel on that. I wouldn't say I'm bad but I'm still learning thats for sure. Currently level 21 with 2 deaths (with 3 lifes) so I have gotten caught with my pants down twice (those god damn zombie bunnies zergin' the shit outta me lol).

I just gotta take it a bit slower I think but I'm still figuring out where I should and shouldn't be lol.


Sword and board isn't bad, but it's a little more expensive and requires you to be in melee to get any benefit because you can't usually riposte against distant enemies and wyrmics have several ranged melee talents. Wyrmics are pretty good at not being in melee if they don't want to be. Earthquake, Wing Buffet, and Tornado all offer knockback, Ice Wall prevents enemies from approaching while stuff is on cooldown, and Ice Breath slows. You can avoid weapon based non-melee talents, but I'm not sure how practical that is. You can also go for a melee build and mostly ignore the breaths and go for Combat Techniques to get an extra closer. Basically choose your range. If you want to fight at range go two handed. If you want to melee go with a shield (though Fearless Cleave is really good for getting into melee on a two handed build). If you want to really push long range combat at the expense of losing most of your melee capability go for mindstars.


Alright, you've convinced me. Once I get Ice Wall maxed I'll switch to 2hander, one of my main worries was my survivability but once I get that I should be solid.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 12:57 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 7:38 pm
Posts: 1970
Location: GMT-8:00
xSeQueL wrote:
Alright, you've convinced me. Once I get Ice Wall maxed I'll switch to 2hander, one of my main worries was my survivability but once I get that I should be solid.


It does depend on how much you've already invested. It's more intended as next character advice because this probably won't be your last wyrmic.

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n. 1. technocracy. 2. government by the numbers. 3. rule by people with the longest fingers.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:45 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:00 pm
Posts: 25
Atarlost wrote:
xSeQueL wrote:
Alright, you've convinced me. Once I get Ice Wall maxed I'll switch to 2hander, one of my main worries was my survivability but once I get that I should be solid.


It does depend on how much you've already invested. It's more intended as next character advice because this probably won't be your last wyrmic.


I've put nothing into shield abilities yet so there is time, I appreciate the advice though!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:00 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:27 am
Posts: 33
A nice thing about wyrmics is that there are so many viable builds. The class has good replay value.

Either 2hander builds or sword+board builds work (I never could get a mindstar build going). Either will use breaths often anyway. With Rush locked and no access to Step Up, a wyrmic needs the range attacks.

Most of the breaths are good (I'm not fond of poison). You won't have the points to max all of them - you just have to pick a few. Three are plenty. Sand is probably best. But even fire is viable, since most of its damage occurs on the first turn. The 3rd fire skill does horrible damage, but can be used to take down bone shields.

My sword+board wyrmics use their shields for resists and effects, not for Block. I usually have more urgent things to do with a turn than blocking.


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