ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:56 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:20 pm
Posts: 9
Link to the guide
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzbUrTroyRQ

Link to the gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEjZnAG6Jzg

Three things I want to note/ask:

1) Turn on adblock for the guide. I got a copyright claim so now you might get ads for that video. "Celestial Aeon Project - Dreaming of Flying" AKA "the Sher'tul Fortress music" is copyrighted material. It turns out a lot of music in TOME isn't public domain. I recommend anyone making videos not play any of the music in this game.

2) Quality = Quantity. Unfortunately I can't make a guide every week or even every other week. I'm too busy and too slow at making these. Let me know if you want plain TOME gameplay every week in between guides.

3) I know that my previous race guide was too long, but how about this one? What would be an ideal length for these guides?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:10 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:23 pm
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Uh, 2 hour long guide for anything is WAY too long. Even tutorials for 3D graphic software are made in much smaller pieces. I would try to condense it into 10-15 minute video, unless it's REALLY indepth guide - then 20 minutes max. But maybe I just prefer text guides for this game - it's not something like Path of Exile, where video guides for builds can show you things that plain text cannot.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:35 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm
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>5/5 Lich

Stopped watching.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:13 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:47 pm
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It's sad, though, because the bonuses that Lichform gives would be pretty useful if they weren't tied to the infusion loss. Disease/poison immunity would help with one of Sacrifice's biggest weaknesses and the Star Fury tree could help with necro's poor damage output.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:16 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:20 pm
Posts: 9
Dopaminka wrote:
Uh, 2 hour long guide for anything is WAY too long. Even tutorials for 3D graphic software are made in much smaller pieces. I would try to condense it into 10-15 minute video, unless it's REALLY indepth guide - then 20 minutes max. But maybe I just prefer text guides for this game - it's not something like Path of Exile, where video guides for builds can show you things that plain text cannot.


I don't think I can show and talk about 44 abilities in depth in just 20 minutes. I'll definitely pick up the pace in the next guide though.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2016 10:56 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 737
Mex wrote:
>5/5 Lich

Stopped watching.


I'm with Mex on this one. Lichform is the only talent that makes your character weaker instead of stronger and thinking it is good is a sign of not understanding the game on a fundamental level. It's fine for fun builds but it should never be recommend to people who want to win.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:50 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:20 pm
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bpat wrote:
Mex wrote:
>5/5 Lich

Stopped watching.


I'm with Mex on this one. Lichform is the only talent that makes your character weaker instead of stronger and thinking it is good is a sign of not understanding the game on a fundamental level. It's fine for fun builds but it should never be recommend to people who want to win.


All the (legit) insane Necro winners went Lich and they all did it before Tinkers were introduced. The only major downside is loss of Movement. Heroism can be replaced with Pain Suppressor which gets extra synergy with the res cap increase. All the benefits I mention in the video.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:22 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:47 pm
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Exocentric wrote:
All the (legit) insane Necro winners went Lich and they all did it before Tinkers were introduced. The only major downside is loss of Movement. Heroism can be replaced with Pain Suppressor which gets extra synergy with the res cap increase. All the benefits I mention in the video.


Here's the perks and detriments of being a Lich:

Poison, cut, and fear immunity: The poison and cut immunities are nice since Sacrifice shields fare poorly against DoT effects. Fear immunity is eh.
50% disease and stun resistance: Disease resistance is nice for the DoT prevention mentioned above. Stun resistance is nice, but can be reduced by certain skills (albeit rarely) and also necessitates finding gear with stun resistance on it (again, not a huge deal, but still something to think about).
20% cold and darkness resistance: Irrelevant. Necromancers don't care about resistances with Sacrifice since any burst damage they'd meaningfully mitigate is already covered by Sacrifice, and resistances do very little for reducing small bits of damage.
No need to breathe: Nice, but this effect can be found on gear.
Infusions do not work: This is the main issue. Infusions offer so many benefits that Runes and Salves don't, and losing them means Liches are severly crippled in terms of mobility and defense. Heroism grants longer Sacrifice shields and allows necromancers to take up to double the hits while both are active. Movement infusions makes dangerous melee enemies a much smaller threat with their kiting potential and stun immunity. Regen infusions allow lower-leveled necros to keep dealing damage rather than focusing on healing while sacrifice is available. Healing infusions get rid of dangerous bleeds and poisons when wild infusions are on cooldown or would be blocked by other less threatening physical effects. Furthermore, most infusions are low-cooldown and instant cast, meaning they are available more frequently and are less likely to get blocked by stuns.
+6 Magic, Willpower and Cunning: Irrelevant by the time you get it. These boosts are minimal.
+3 life rating (not retroactive): Actively harmful for necromancers. Since Sacrifice only limits hits to a certain percentage of maximum life, having more life increases the amount of damage that can be dealt to you and, thus, requires you to be able to heal for more.
+15 spell and mental saves: Irrelevant. These will mean nothing thanks to scaling.
All resistance caps raised by 15%: See the cold and darkness resist section.
Celestial/Star Fury category (1.1) and 1.0 negative energy regeneration: Moonlight Ray is a decent damage low cooldown beam, which base necros lack. Shadow Blast is a mediocre AoE spell with bad range and a negligible DoT. Twilight Surge is only useful for regenerating negative energy due to the low damage and awful range. Starfall is an okay-ish damage blast with a stun which can be helpful occasionally. One major problem with this tree is that all of its spells will damage minions, meaning that it's only really useful for pure caster builds.

While the Insane winners are all using Lichform, it's likely due to a thematic choice rather than an actual pragmatic choice of "this will make my character better." The benefits that Lichform provides don't come close to making up for the massive detriment of not being able to use infusions that it brings with it, especially since the majority make no effective difference. Tinkers and salves don't do anything that infusions can't AND cost a category point, which requires dropping Light, Ice, or Shades, which are all crucial for a necro's damage output and healing. The only way I see Lichform being "better" than a base necromancer is if they're not using sacrifice so that the resistance boosts make a difference, but why would you play a necromancer without sacrifice?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:22 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:20 pm
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The Tapir wrote:
Here's the perks and detriments of being a Lich:

Poison, cut, and fear immunity: The poison and cut immunities are nice since Sacrifice shields fare poorly against DoT effects. Fear immunity is eh.
50% disease and stun resistance: Disease resistance is nice for the DoT prevention mentioned above. Stun resistance is nice, but can be reduced by certain skills (albeit rarely) and also necessitates finding gear with stun resistance on it (again, not a huge deal, but still something to think about).
20% cold and darkness resistance: Irrelevant. Necromancers don't care about resistances with Sacrifice since any burst damage they'd meaningfully mitigate is already covered by Sacrifice, and resistances do very little for reducing small bits of damage.
No need to breathe: Nice, but this effect can be found on gear.
Infusions do not work: This is the main issue. Infusions offer so many benefits that Runes and Salves don't, and losing them means Liches are severly crippled in terms of mobility and defense. Heroism grants longer Sacrifice shields and allows necromancers to take up to double the hits while both are active. Movement infusions makes dangerous melee enemies a much smaller threat with their kiting potential and stun immunity. Regen infusions allow lower-leveled necros to keep dealing damage rather than focusing on healing while sacrifice is available. Healing infusions get rid of dangerous bleeds and poisons when wild infusions are on cooldown or would be blocked by other less threatening physical effects. Furthermore, most infusions are low-cooldown and instant cast, meaning they are available more frequently and are less likely to get blocked by stuns.
+6 Magic, Willpower and Cunning: Irrelevant by the time you get it. These boosts are minimal.
+3 life rating (not retroactive): Actively harmful for necromancers. Since Sacrifice only limits hits to a certain percentage of maximum life, having more life increases the amount of damage that can be dealt to you and, thus, requires you to be able to heal for more.
+15 spell and mental saves: Irrelevant. These will mean nothing thanks to scaling.
All resistance caps raised by 15%: See the cold and darkness resist section.
Celestial/Star Fury category (1.1) and 1.0 negative energy regeneration: Moonlight Ray is a decent damage low cooldown beam, which base necros lack. Shadow Blast is a mediocre AoE spell with bad range and a negligible DoT. Twilight Surge is only useful for regenerating negative energy due to the low damage and awful range. Starfall is an okay-ish damage blast with a stun which can be helpful occasionally. One major problem with this tree is that all of its spells will damage minions, meaning that it's only really useful for pure caster builds.

While the Insane winners are all using Lichform, it's likely due to a thematic choice rather than an actual pragmatic choice of "this will make my character better." The benefits that Lichform provides don't come close to making up for the massive detriment of not being able to use infusions that it brings with it, especially since the majority make no effective difference. Tinkers and salves don't do anything that infusions can't AND cost a category point, which requires dropping Light, Ice, or Shades, which are all crucial for a necro's damage output and healing. The only way I see Lichform being "better" than a base necromancer is if they're not using sacrifice so that the resistance boosts make a difference, but why would you play a necromancer without sacrifice?


If we are going to talk solely about viability here is how I see it

Non-Lich:
Categories: 1 Inscription slot, Shades, Advanced Necro, Second Inscription/Escort/Ice (pretty bad tree imo)
Inscriptions: Manasurge, Heroism, Movement, Shield/Regen/Healing
Could go tinker, but would have to replace at least one inscription for an injector (two is more optimal however)
Frees up at least 14 class points (1 undeath link, 5 Lichdom, 8 in Star Fury)
Infinite generics!
Less damage output and relies solely on mana bar
Sacrifice has better synergy with Heroism and more options to heal up
Less likely to be escort screwed

Lich as Tinker:
Categories: 1 Inscription slot, Shades, Tinker, Advanced Necro/Second Inscription/Escort
Inscriptions: Shield, 2 Injectors, Phase Door/Manasurge (not necessary with attachments)
Injectors have more versatility with healing, unstoppable, cleanses, etc and tinker provides item attachments
Far less class points
Less generics, but very manageable
Two great damaging spells (Moonlight Ray and Starfall) that rely on a second resource bar
Doesn't completely rely on Sacrifice due to res options
More likely to be escort screw (unless you scum save :twisted: )


I also want to note that my guides are about learning everything about the class, not a step-by-step tutorial on how to build your character. My prodigies were Blighted Summoning and Eye of the Tiger. Hell, I even mention that if I played Necro again I'd build it differently. With that being said, I don't think Lich is a downgrade. Its at worst a slightly worse alternative to non-Lich and at best superior in many ways. Don't knock it until you try it out!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Magical Girl

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:36 am
Posts: 388
Tapir and mex pretty much summed up my feelings on the guide already. You also chose two pretty awful prodigies, so you're not doing yourself any favors there, heh.
Undead are marginally weaker than non-undead and that's just how the metagame is right now, we don't need to try anything to know that it's just not optimal, especially after having as many high diff wins and playtime people like us have.
I'd like to point that 2/3 of those insane winners had heavy vault usage (which makes the game marginally easier), one of them maxed constitution and the other two dumped in it, along with a lot of other questionable build decisions :o just because something can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea or that it helps anyone win.

You simply undervalue things like infusions massively since you play on normal/nightmare (which are essentially the same as far as balance is concerned), a common metagame mistake that can be ignored but in the long run isn't helping anyone win.
Hell, you didn't even WIN with your build, why are you writing a guide? This is why I disagree with people making guides without having Insane wins at the very least :)
With some knowledge about the metagame, Normal is a difficulty that can realistically be beaten without talents, and Nightmare with close to none (see Shesh's antimagic archmage.) That's why guides based on Nightmare are worthless, and on Normal even more so.

No offense, but it's clear you should belt some more wins and learn more about the metagame before writing guides if you want to be helpful. You're just writing a guide on a difficulty where anything goes, and where it's really hard to tell what's truly good from what isn't.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 11:25 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:20 pm
Posts: 9
Sheila wrote:
Tapir and mex pretty much summed up my feelings on the guide already. You also chose two pretty awful prodigies, so you're not doing yourself any favors there, heh.
Undead are marginally weaker than non-undead and that's just how the metagame is right now, we don't need to try anything to know that it's just not optimal, especially after having as many high diff wins and playtime people like us have.
I'd like to point that 2/3 of those insane winners had heavy vault usage (which makes the game marginally easier), one of them maxed constitution and the other two dumped in it, along with a lot of other questionable build decisions :o just because something can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea or that it helps anyone win.

You simply undervalue things like infusions massively since you play on normal/nightmare (which are essentially the same as far as balance is concerned), a common metagame mistake that can be ignored but in the long run isn't helping anyone win.
Hell, you didn't even WIN with your build, why are you writing a guide? This is why I disagree with people making guides without having Insane wins at the very least :)
With some knowledge about the metagame, Normal is a difficulty that can realistically be beaten without talents, and Nightmare with close to none (see Shesh's antimagic archmage.) That's why guides based on Nightmare are worthless, and on Normal even more so.

No offense, but it's clear you should belt some more wins and learn more about the metagame before writing guides if you want to be helpful. You're just writing a guide on a difficulty where anything goes, and where it's really hard to tell what's truly good from what isn't.


Ouch the elitism is real. I'll go get an Insane Archmage win if it'll prove I'm good enough for you guys :wink: . I only make my guides based on NM just to guarantee I get to level 50 due to time constraints. Also, I'm not one to blindly accept "metagame" statements and I discourage them. I'm aware that Shalore and Ogre are the best races, Cauterize and Draconic Will are the best prodigies, Heroism and Movement are far better than any rune, crit power to boost damage late game, etc etc etc. However, I'd rather have players consider everything instead of just listening to others say they're worthless.

With that being said, I do want to emphasize that some abilities are core abilities. Mind telling me which abilities in particular you had a hard time differentiating whether I said it was good or bad? I wouldn't want to trick a new player into maxing something like Undeath Link :?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:57 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 737
Not winning would be fine for an LP or something, but not so much for a guide since people want to check out guides that are confirmed to work. It's not a case of elitism but rather that people have a higher standard for quality of guides than other content. It'd be like if a Gold III League of Legends player posting guides. Elitism isn't the same thing of quality control, and it's kinda annoying seeing accusations of elitism when people are just concerned about the quality of the content.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:12 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
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Challenge time: Someone make a guide for a Lichform necromancer.
We've all seen the guides for the optimal classes/builds. There is a huge untapped market of weaker classes/build choices waiting to be exploited. Think of the moneys!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:47 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 4:55 am
Posts: 16
Exocentric wrote:
Sheila wrote:
Tapir and mex pretty much summed up my feelings on the guide already. You also chose two pretty awful prodigies, so you're not doing yourself any favors there, heh.
Undead are marginally weaker than non-undead and that's just how the metagame is right now, we don't need to try anything to know that it's just not optimal, especially after having as many high diff wins and playtime people like us have.
I'd like to point that 2/3 of those insane winners had heavy vault usage (which makes the game marginally easier), one of them maxed constitution and the other two dumped in it, along with a lot of other questionable build decisions :o just because something can be done doesn't mean it's a good idea or that it helps anyone win.

You simply undervalue things like infusions massively since you play on normal/nightmare (which are essentially the same as far as balance is concerned), a common metagame mistake that can be ignored but in the long run isn't helping anyone win.
Hell, you didn't even WIN with your build, why are you writing a guide? This is why I disagree with people making guides without having Insane wins at the very least :)
With some knowledge about the metagame, Normal is a difficulty that can realistically be beaten without talents, and Nightmare with close to none (see Shesh's antimagic archmage.) That's why guides based on Nightmare are worthless, and on Normal even more so.

No offense, but it's clear you should belt some more wins and learn more about the metagame before writing guides if you want to be helpful. You're just writing a guide on a difficulty where anything goes, and where it's really hard to tell what's truly good from what isn't.


Ouch the elitism is real. I'll go get an Insane Archmage win if it'll prove I'm good enough for you guys :wink: . I only make my guides based on NM just to guarantee I get to level 50 due to time constraints. Also, I'm not one to blindly accept "metagame" statements and I discourage them. I'm aware that Shalore and Ogre are the best races, Cauterize and Draconic Will are the best prodigies, Heroism and Movement are far better than any rune, crit power to boost damage late game, etc etc etc. However, I'd rather have players consider everything instead of just listening to others say they're worthless.

With that being said, I do want to emphasize that some abilities are core abilities. Mind telling me which abilities in particular you had a hard time differentiating whether I said it was good or bad? I wouldn't want to trick a new player into maxing something like Undeath Link :?


It's not really elitism. It's a caste based system that respects time-based commitment and skill. I'm pleased that I have Normal RL clears, even though Steam's implementation will make it seem like I'm a first timer the next time I clear. But someone who has beaten the game on a permadeath setting at a higher difficulty has loads more credibility than I do.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:15 am 
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Higher

Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:14 pm
Posts: 50
Can someone explain why, if Lichform is bad, so many Insane winners use it? Why would they actually harm themselves that much? Also, how do you go pure caster necro non-lich? If I'm not mistaken, some of Insane winners went (almost) pure caster.


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