ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
It is currently Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:16 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Traps
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:36 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:25 pm
Posts: 321
Right now, hardly anybody even puts any points in the trap tree at all, and it's one of the few unique things about the rogue class. At best, traps in their current incarnation soften things up a bit. Even having Lure set off a nearby explosion or poison gas trap when destroyed generally means that you just applied a weak DOT.

Nightshade trap, with 100 Cun, does damage in the upper 400s maybe. You might hit 510 with it, assuming the enemy doesn't resist nature and you put an extra category point in traps. But it will never crit.

It's lovely that there's a nice prodigy at level 30 that gives a nice gravity trap, but it's hella hard to even get a trap rogue to survive to level 30.

What can we do to fix this? Make trap damage scale better with Cunning (or maybe add Mindpower into the mix?), and let traps Mindcrit.

Also, who uses Sticky Smoke? Anyone? I suggest making it work more like a non-stealth-breaking sun infusion, as in straight-up Blindness, with more points increasing the radius significantly, and any enemy affected by blindness should not be able to prevent you from restealthing in their presence.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:56 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:35 am
Posts: 400
I've been trying to get a trapper rogue going with out much success.
Lure has great range at high level(14 I think) & is potentially good combined with some form of detection (arcane eye, overseer of nations etc.) what it needs is for you to be able to throw/launch it over targets heads rather then being blocked by enemy targets.
Sticky smoke at high levels is quite good when it works (ideally you again want some way of seeing past 10 squares) but a lot of my targets seem to just shrug it off.
Stamina management is a nightmare. They need to hit & run but it's more like hit & run out of steam.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:49 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:25 pm
Posts: 321
I know what you mean about the stamina. On one of my trap rogues I pumped Will along with Cun, for a bigger stamina pool, and wore as much stamina regen gear as I could. But I had little means of dealing with the enemies that got past the traps. You lure throwing idea would probably help with that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:05 pm 
Offline
Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm
Posts: 1884
I personally feel like Sticky Smoke is fine-it has many upsides on a Sun Infusion to match the downsides it has(longer duration, more controllable, doesn't break stealth).

Traps are pretty iffy, though. All trap type moves inherently have the downside of having to have an enemy hit them-that's a turn delay at least where the enemy has to move on the square, and possibly more. Possibly a lot more, if they're a ranged fighter and want to just keep shooting you. Glyphs got fixed by being made Instant, so they're entirely secondary, bonus commands that don't take any time, so their flaws are fine... but Traps still have some issues-and their main role, as a kind of ranged skill, doesn't work that well for the reasons I said.

I'd like to see them gain more damage and the ability to Mindcrit-it's not all that illogical for a well placed trap to occasionally do a lot more damage than normal.

Something along the lines of +0.3 to the Cunning multiplier of all the traps except Nightshade(+0.5 or +0.6 to that, it's surprisingly low damage) and a Mindcrit check seems like it'd be enough.

...By the way, does Flash Bang Trap appear anywhere? I never saw that trap in my run, but it's in the code and looks quite good.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:41 pm 
Offline
Wyrmic

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 227
Since the flash bang trap only appears in that one talent file, I'm pretty sure it's not implemented. Including a few more advanced, 'found' traps would be another welcome boost to the skillset.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:32 am 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:35 am
Posts: 400
Allowing criticals would be good. At least then you can boost their damage with the lethality talent.
Extra trap types would also be handy. I keep coming across foes with resists/status immunities in a large chunk of my traps arsenal.

SageAcrin wrote:
Traps are pretty iffy, though. All trap type moves inherently have the downside of having to have an enemy hit them-that's a turn delay at least where the enemy has to move on the square, and possibly more. Possibly a lot more, if they're a ranged fighter and want to just keep shooting you. Glyphs got fixed by being made Instant, so they're entirely secondary, bonus commands that don't take any time, so their flaws are fine... but Traps still have some issues-and their main role, as a kind of ranged skill, doesn't work that well for the reasons I said.

I think this is a downside you pay for being able to set up in advance & duck round a corner. I tend to lay traps then use nimble movements to get out of site.
Does lure's taunt work through walls? Perhaps it should seeing the description says it's noise. It'd help a lot if you didn't have to make a target of yourself to lure enemies on to traps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:10 pm 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:35 am
Posts: 400
Another nice to have would be to allow the poisons tree to interact with poison gas traps. Considering the investment it takes to get a good mystic trapper going (50 magic, a prodigy (mystical cunning), a category point on poisons, probably another category point on 1 of the magic generics from an escort) they could at least end-up with vulnerability poison gas traps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:18 am 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:29 am
Posts: 123
very interesting topic, and totally right , nobody uses traps.

Traps have to be prepared in advance: that is very annoying and imho if ur enemy falls into one it should be rewarded.

So range and damage should scale A LOT higher with heavy investment BUT with some randomness to the quality of ur trap based on a 2nd stat (so 2 stat heavy investment)

What about a trap similar to remove from game x turns? HOLE IN THE GROUND! Or just a cage.
(doesnt work on teleport - flying mobs)

Think about the stealth tree, no preparation and can easily do 600... a trap should be at least a 1000 dmg maxed. (maybe more) NOT all enemies would press all traps, but some traps could catch everything. OR how about very heavy dots? Or very cripling stuff

and magic traps for apropriate class could be also an option , or even antimagic traps for antimagic rogues.

Just brainstorming it.
Best traps could require specific objects dropped from mobs?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:00 am 
Offline
Wyrmic

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:10 pm
Posts: 227
Keep the ideas coming. I'm considering starting work on an addon to buff existing traps a bit and add an advanced traps tree, although it will be at least a month or so before I'll have any time to take a serious stab at it. If anybody wants to get the ball rolling before then, I'm happy to add my support where I can. For full disclosure: I'm pretty new to coding as a whole, so don't expect any quick results. Also, if we get enough good ideas together here, we may be able to convince one of the better talentcrafters to lend us a hand.

Quote:
Traps have to be prepared in advance: that is very annoying and imho if ur enemy falls into one it should be rewarded.


I think this is basically the crux of the issue. It's more difficult to actually hit many enemies with a trap than with just about any other attack in the game. Of course being able to set things up in advance also has its own substantial benefits, which shouldn't be ignored, but the increased preparation time and strategy needed to use traps needs to be better compensated if they're to serve as a seriously viable alternative.

Rather than just pumping damage, adding crits and adding effects (although these are probably also needed), I'd rather see additions made which embrace and expand upon the unique mechanic of traps, rather than making it feel like I'm playing a mage with delayed blast fireballs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:13 am 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:29 am
Posts: 123
delayed blast fireball IS a trap :D

ok more ideas, going a bit crazy:
how about a trap that explotes in X turns? Grenade like... you cant control how many turns at lvl one but more lvls give you more control : you cant throw it though, must be placed.

or a trap that takes a big preparation: 50 turns or so.

A trap that closes the door after someone has passed and releases some mobs against the target. <- i like that idea because you have to make sure the Boss is the one to activate it AND you have to get out urself (or not be in) "trap of worms"

EVEN BETTER: a trap that captures mobs for the previous trap (in some extradimensional space) then makes them go berserk when they are released - fight the other mob you just trapped.

Arrow trap: full corridor of arrows , as he advanced, arrow hit him from both sides.

Another lvl trap: this one would take some programming: send mob to lower lvl, and this one could be reusable (get rid of summoned mobs fast) , you would need a digger.

One way hole in the ground: not a trap, but something only a trap maker could do, you fall down to the next lvl (no stairs).


Reusable trap: small dmg to anyone passing over it (not to flyers)

enough? :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:50 am 
Offline
Archmage

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:35 am
Posts: 400
Hallucinogenic gas trap(confusion) as currently trappers struggle against anything stun-resistant (nightshade) & unarmed (disarm trap). I haven't seen the code for flash-bang trap, is it a blindness trap? could be nice.

An arcane trap tree to go with mystical cunning? - Remote trigger, teleportation trap, hurricane trap, ...
An antimagic trap - slime bomb (slime damage in a small radius)

Edit: Another antimagic trap - disruption trap. Maybe even a tempory area effect rather then needing a trigger.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:34 am 
Offline
Halfling

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:37 pm
Posts: 88
A trap that teleports a monster x(scales with cunning) spaces away while doing damage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:49 pm 
Offline
Halfling

Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:37 am
Posts: 82
Just to qualify - I play all my rogues (my most played class) as "trappers". I'm not sure why people call them "trapper rogues" - to get a strong benefit out of the trap tree, all you really need is 5/1/1/ and 2-3 in Trap Launcher. The investment is totally worth it on any rogue, whether or not you're calling yourself a "trapper", imo - ranged stuns, pins, bleeds are totally worth it for the 7 points, and I've noticed that Disarming Trap even does as much damage as Nightshade Trap now, which is a much-appreciated buff. You aren't going to oneshot lategame mobs, but traps always do good damage, and the utility they provide (ie catapulting a mob away so you can stealth and so on) never goes away. Personally, I find a combination of traps and stealth attacks to be quite effective (2 winners with that combo.) But if you're trying to kill things with only traps, it isn't going to work very well - traps are a tool, not a crutch.

The only buffs I'd really want to see would be for the flashbang trap to actually be implemented and unlockable somehow, and maybe some sort of rework on Lure, which is definately not worth the points it takes to get the benefit of level 5. The freezing gas trap that's already in the game might be nice to have, too. Crits would make them ridiculously overpowered. My last thought is that the Mystic Cunning prodigy should really just be a cunning prodigy, maybe with a rename - forcing rogues to get 50 magic is rather silly, when none of their other skills use it, and looking at the code, the talents you get from the prodigy both scale exclusively from Cun - they don't actually use Mag at all. I usually just edit the code to make it a cunning prodigy myself, but it would be nice to have it official.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:36 am 
Offline
Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:20 am
Posts: 889
Excellent post, nukularpower.

Yes, playing a trap-exclusive rogue can be difficult, but it doesn't take too much investment for traps to be useful on virtually any rogue. Traps give rogues ranged attacks (practically), AoE damage, and debuffs. Plus, you can often set traps while running away to (or already in) a place of safety or in anticipation of opening a dangerous door. What's wrong with that?!

Anyway, I am pleased to see all the ideas on this thread. More fun and useful traps would be welcome :)

Oh, and the Mystical Cunning prodigy is totally worth investing in Mag even if you don't use Mag for anything else! If you need to do without some of your primary stats, then so be it, that's a small price to pay.

_________________
darkgod wrote:
OMFG tiger eye you are my hero!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Traps
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:56 am 
Offline
Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm
Posts: 1884
Quote:
You aren't going to oneshot lategame mobs, but traps always do good damage, and the utility they provide (ie catapulting a mob away so you can stealth and so on) never goes away.


This is the part I'd disagree with.

Traps reach 300-400 at top and cannot critical hit. Lategame, they're not doing good damage. They're doing 300-400 can't crit damage, often with strings attached(requires poison to connect, for example).

This would be good if the lategame was, say, a warren of linear passageways. Lay a bunch of traps in advance! Get 2000 damage! Good damage.

This describes half of High Peak and a bit of Grushnak, though. There's simply no reliable way to place traps so that enemies will hit them without understanding the ins and outs of the AI thoroughly, and even if you do...what did you accomplish? Threeshotting an enemy? Usually conditionally? With many of the traps being single enemies only, so you can't even defend them as crowd control?

Couldn't you have done 300-400 damage by just firing a Sling, with decreased speed compared to laying a trap, and no Stamina cost? No skill point cost, too, for that matter, and even various status options if you're willing to field AM ammo? I'm pretty sure you could have.

Traps are fine for the early and mid-game, and I agree there. But we're talking one of the best damage dealers in the game, later in the game. I was quite capable of outputting, in bursts, 2500+ damage-despite terrible equipment-when I cleared. The utility can't possibly make up for that-their late game damage is simply horrifyingly bad in comparison.

And when every single enemy in the game has a racial skill that HP heals, as well as tons of infusions and class support skills/heals, the ability to lay a bunch in advance and lure enemies into them slowly is mostly a waste of time. You're better off trying to set up Stealth assaults.

That the playstyle is viable to clear doesn't necessarily say much. Trap heavy Rogue is playable, certainly...but I suspect that, say, a melee Archmage is viable. The question is if it brings something useful to the table. And Rogue, a class with multiple nasty Poison based debilitators(attached to basic physicals, even!) and multiple Stuns, simply doesn't have a lot of use for Knockback/Stun as status options.

Basically, as it stands, I'd definitely skip the tree for the new, nicely buffed, Cripple and getting it to 5 instead. When I played, I got it up to 5 and used it...occasionally, but it felt like I was doing it out of an obligation to use my investment. I don't recall a single time I felt like just hitting the guy wouldn't have been faster, or that I had stayed out of harms way long enough to notably improve my survival. :|


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group