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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:54 am 
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Hey folks, apologies if this comes across as an obvious newbie thing, but I can't seem to find an up-to-date Archer guide anywhere. Only ones I can find are multiple years old and seem to reference skills that no longer exist.

Does such a thing exist? Or would it be better for me to simply bombard this thread with random questions as I have them? (And I do indeed have them.)

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
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Volteccer wrote some shitposts about archer and it's pretty much on point, though it's a WIP so expect him to finish it tomorrow and get mad that i posted it first :lol:
volteccer wrote:
Sniper
-Concealment: LOLOP. 4/5 as soon as you unlock the category because leaves' tide evasion is really good. Don't bother with the last point, it's only a 3% increase in evade chance.
-Shadow Shot: I recommend leaving this at 1/5 and not bothering with it; if 3 turns isn't enough time for you to defuse a threat, you need to retreat. If you do want to use it, you need at least 3/5 in order for the cooldown reduction to be enough to matter, because almost all fights will end too quickly for 2/5 Shadow Shot to do the job. The confusion aspect is pretty useless and should be ignored for the most part; everything dangerous can be countered by Called Shotsor Sentinel and they are both more reliable than confusion.
-Aim: 5/5 fairly quickly, gives you more damage and doubles the travel speed of your arrows.
-Snipe: It is Block, lol. Block sucks. Don't use this. It is a waste of turn.

Agility
-Agile Defense: 5 this fairly quickly, but prioritize 2/5 Rapid Shot first.
-Vault: 1/5, would be an amazing mobility talent on another class, but Archer has lolescape so you will pretty much never use this.
-Bull Shot: 1/5, would be an amazing mobility talent on another class, but Archer has lolescape so you will pretty much never use this. Good for chasing Elandar!
-Rapid Shot: LOLOP. 2/5 ASAP, add more points when convenient. Don't underestimate the free turn gain, lategame you will only need like 46% of a turn(or less) to attack so getting 8% of a turn back every turn is a big deal. The movespeed bonus is relatively minor, but makes sure enemies barely ever get turns no matter you are doing.

Marksmanship
-Master Marksman: Your mastery talent, 5 ASAP obviously.
-First Blood: Gives you more marks, bleed, and stamina regen. Slightly useful so it's not completely a talent point tax, but we're really here for Trueshot. Leave it at 1/5.
-Flare: Pretty much useless except possibly against dreadmasters, as the guaranteed mark makes it easy to Headshot them. In practice, you have so much accuracy that you won't even need it for that. Leave this point tax at 1/5 and expect to never use it.
-Trueshot: LOLOLOPOPOP. Take this to 2/5 ASAP, and 4/5 fairly early. In the early and mid game you won't be quite uber enough, so you will want to wait a few rounds of combat before activating to get the most out of it. By the time you reach level 30, you should always be using this before you fire any arrows in combat, and unless you are fighting an Elite Boss or a large group, the fight should end before this buff runs out.

Reflexes
-Shoot Down: Talent point tax, but a useful one at least. Prevents your arrows from ever causing friendly fire, slows down all enemy projectiles, and can be activated to instantly shoot a projectile out of the sky(exploding projectiles will explode where they are). Handy for stopping Soul Rot and bullets/arrows from gunslingers/archers, but we're not here for this talent.
-Intuitive Shots: Massively massively nerfed, but still ridiculous. 2/5 is plenty, lategame when you have extra points maybe 4/5 if you want.
-Sentinel: LOL. 5/5. Lategame everything will die long before this cools down except maybe the final boss, so the only thing that matters is choosing the appropriate target. If there is any enemy with archer or summoner/oozemancer talents present, they are the appropriate target, since those are the only 3 enemies that aren't trivialized by Called Shots. If there are none of those around, use it on mages that can teleport you around or swap places with you, since you don't want that to happen and your silence shot isn't a perfect guarantee.
-Escape: LOL. 2/5 ASAP, that's more than enough to be better than any movement infusion you will ever find. Lategame you can add more points if you want.

Archery Prowess
-Headshot: LOL. 1/5 is more than enough for this talent to be dumb and overpowered. Lategame you will have extra points so you may as well 5 it.
-Volley: Waste of a mark if you are fighting anything dangerous and it can't make new marks, so this is purely a talent point tax. On the other hand, 90% of situations aren't dangerous LOL so at least this will help clear crowds of fodder a bit faster.
-Called Shots: LOL. 4/5 ASAP for the duration breakpoint. Pretty much trivializes any enemy that doesn't use mindpowers.
-Bullseye: This is kinda OP, but it will probably have to wait for all the really really OP stuff before you have spare points for it. Get it to 2/5 fairly soon, and 4/5 when you can.

Munitions
-Exotic Munitions: 2/5 ASAP. When you first unlock the cat, either use Venomous or Piercing. Once you get Alloyed Munitions never use anything but Piercing. Lategame you can put an extra point or two here if you like.
-Explosive Shot: 2/5 ASAP for the physical effect removal. Lategame you can put an extra point here if you want more AOE for clearing trash mobs.
-Enhanced Munitions: 2/5 ASAP. 3 turn duration may sound short but Archer plays the entire game in bullet-time so buff/debuff durations are effectively doubled.
-Alloyed Munitions: 2/5 ASAP, and if you were using Venomous before, never use it again once you get this talent. Lategame, this is a decent place for extra talent points.

Archery Training
-Earlygame, either 1/0/0/0 or 1/1/1/1.
-Lategame, either 5/0/0/0 or 5/1/1/1.

Combat Techniques
-If you are Shalore either ignore this category entirely or go 1/0/0/0.
-If you aren't Shalore, either go 1/1/1/5 or stop being stupid and pick Shalore.

Combat Veteran
-Ignore this category entirely.

Trapping
-Ignore this category entirely.

Combat Training
-Heavy Armor Training: 1/5 for dem sweet metal gloves
-Light Armor Training: 5/5, duh
-Combat Accuracy: You are maxing Dex and Headshot is stupid so you probably don't need to 5 it. Whatever, who cares.
-Thick Skin: Invest to taste, you are pretty much always getting PES so you will have enough CON to get 5/5 if you want.

Mobility
-Disengage: Not very good, and we have lolescape so you will pretty much never use this. 1/5 talent point tax.
-Evasion: Archer rares are pretty much the only thing that can kill you, and this will make it harder for them to kill you. Still not worth more than 1/5.
-Tumble: Decent mobility talent, but we have lolescape so you will pretty much never use this. 1/5.
-Trained Reactions: Duh. 3/5 is fine for most of the game, 5 it by endgame.

Conditioning
-Probably should just ignore this category, but if you do unlock it, go 1/5/0/0.

Survival
-Heightened Senses: 1/5, but you may want to put more points here just so you don't have to deal with the nonsense interface-screw of stealthed enemies (you have so much accuracy with Headshot that you will easily hit regardless, putting points here is just a Quality of Life thing so you don't have to right-click empty squares to find the stealthed guy).
-Device Mastery: 5/5 if you find items with good activated abilities, which is virtually guaranteed. But don't go more than 1/5 until you actually find those items.
-Track: 1/5 gives you all of the benefits of Track.
-Danger Sense: 1/5 just because a second save check is good, the returns on points after that are terrible so don't bother.

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm
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Yeah, I'll clean that guide up and make a proper post in a day or so. All you REALLY need to know is that Trueshot, Headshot, and Piercing ammunition are completely bonkers.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:20 pm
Posts: 9
That's a good summary out there. Some considerations on me playing archers though:

Intuitive shots can - up escape and render you a free death on difficult situations, thats why i just put one point on it and deactivate it on late game. Ideally though, you probably want to keep it activated and deactivate it when you use escape. Since i'm too lazy for that, i keep it deactivated.

Head shot seems to miss a LOT with me. I dont know why that happens, if it is a bug or whatever... i noticed it frequently happens when the enemy moves. I would appreciate other players input about this!

The type of ammunition really depends on what type of damage you are dealing with. Normally you will deal physical and thus piercing is indeed better. However, if you are using another damage type of arrows, venomous can be superior IMO.

Its worth maxing out Steady shot early if nothing else, just for the increased mark chance. The increased damage is just a bonus.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
Posts: 492
Laveley wrote:
That's a good summary out there. Some considerations on me playing archers though:

Intuitive shots can - up escape and render you a free death on difficult situations, thats why i just put one point on it and deactivate it on late game. Ideally though, you probably want to keep it activated and deactivate it when you use escape. Since i'm too lazy for that, i keep it deactivated.

this doesn't happen. in earlier versions you got the free shots from intuitive while escaping but now it just dodges and doesn't trigger the shot.

Laveley wrote:
Head shot seems to miss a LOT with me. I dont know why that happens, if it is a bug or whatever... i noticed it frequently happens when the enemy moves. I would appreciate other players input about this!

pretty sure headshot has instant travel time and infinite accuracy

Laveley wrote:
The type of ammunition really depends on what type of damage you are dealing with. Normally you will deal physical and thus piercing is indeed better. However, if you are using another damage type of arrows, venomous can be superior IMO.
why would you use non-physical ammo ever
anyway even then piercing is better since every fight is over before poison ticks twice

Laveley wrote:
Its worth maxing out Steady shot early if nothing else, just for the increased mark chance. The increased damage is just a bonus.

nah you've got far more OP stuff to max out until like level 30

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:45 am
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Thanks much, gang. Nice to see some good advice. Any suggestions about good stats/points of emphasis/things to aim for (no pun intended) on bows and quivers?

(I get the feeling that sling/shield archers are very niche, so I'm just focusing on the above. Happy to be corrected.)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:20 pm
Posts: 9
Good to know about intuitive shots! Didnt knew about the change.

Quote:
pretty sure headshot has instant travel time and infinite accuracy


Exactly. Yet, my heashots still missing. Should i report as a bug?

The reason why not use physical is in case you have came upon a bow that gives imba increased damage for a certain type, like the one that give +40% blight damage. On my last game as an archer, i got that bow and a t4 arrow with blight damage. Later, i got those t5 arrows with 60 base damage. Than i though they would do more damage with piercing. I did the tests, and the t4 arrows + blight blow was doing pretty much the same "on-hit" damage that the t5 arrow with another bows with piercing and venomous tests. The difference was on the dot + debuffs from venomous later; every fight that should be over before poison or bleed can tick will be over with or without poison or piercing, except when they dont (i.e. bosses), than the venomous proved to be slight superior, not specifically because damage, but because the debuffs, crippling poison specially can give a 40% of talent failure and thats pretty handy against strong enemies.

As for the Steady shot, you are probably right.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm
Posts: 43
FriedrichPsitalon wrote:
Thanks much, gang. Nice to see some good advice. Any suggestions about good stats/points of emphasis/things to aim for (no pun intended) on bows and quivers?

(I get the feeling that sling/shield archers are very niche, so I'm just focusing on the above. Happy to be corrected.)

Bow/Sling is now basically a choice between Rapid Shot's ridiculous attack speed, which is OPAF, and Concealment's 45% evasion chance, which is OPAF. The correct choice is Slings because you are taking PES at level 30.

Any launcher with range lower than 9 is unusable garbage, if Last Hope and Zigur don't have any in their shops, reroll your character. After that you want attack speed, +physical% damage, and +physical% penetration. Also keep an eye out for Steady Shot cooldown -1. If you are using bows, you will probably just be using Surefire until you get a randart T4/5 bow in the east. If you are using slings, you are probably using a T3 sling with ranger's or true flight ego, I think ranger's hardened leather sling of power is the best non-randart to look for early on. Nithan's Force is the best launcher in the game except maybe a really ludicrous T5 randart. On ammo you want high damage first and foremost. After that, disabling egos like thought-forged or crippling would be next, or something with loads of damage procs.

ster wrote:
Laveley wrote:
Head shot seems to miss a LOT with me. I dont know why that happens, if it is a bug or whatever... i noticed it frequently happens when the enemy moves. I would appreciate other players input about this!

pretty sure headshot has instant travel time and infinite accuracy

Just +100 accuracy, so it still misses now and then. Also things like evasion etc. But you can literally just use it again in that case so who cares

Quote:
The type of ammunition really depends on what type of damage you are dealing with. Normally you will deal physical and thus piercing is indeed better. However, if you are using another damage type of arrows, venomous can be superior IMO.

Non-physical arrows/bullets are transmogrify fodder on Archer now because piercing ammo is just that good LOL, the MAIN benefit of Venomous ammo is reducing enemy damage and Piercing gets exactly the same thing. The heal is bad since waiting to heal is bad since you attack so ridiculously fast you'll either solve the problem before you regen or the problem will make you need even more regen. Talent fail chance is okay, but any enemy that we are afraid of is already disarmed and/or silenced and/or has several talents on cooldown, so it's much more useful to shut down their sustains and buffs, such as Juggernaut.

Quote:
the one that give +40% blight damage.

that bow is useless because it has range 7

Quote:
Its worth maxing out Steady shot early if nothing else, just for the increased mark chance. The increased damage is just a bonus.

We don't have points to spare because other things like Trueshot and Munitions are much much more important. Putting points in Trueshot gives way more marks than points in Steady Shot anyway.

Mark chance IS damage btw. Since Called Shots can only be used once or twice in a given fight due to the cooldown, increased mark chance means nothing except more uses of Headshot.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:20 pm
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Quote:
that bow is useless because it has range 7


The range sucks yes, but it also gives a 40% disease chance and other minor pluses. IMO is a good bow if you happen to find the arrows to fit it, but if you think like that theres not much left for discussion anyways.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm
Posts: 43
Do you like getting hit by war hounds and ritches? Do you like getting put to sleep? Do you like being fearscaped? Do you like having Inner Demons used on you?

You don't?

Well if your weapon has range 9, you have 100% immunity to all of those things, and many other things as well.

This, by the way, is why Archer rares are the only thing that have a chance to kill you as new Archer. Melee classes are disarmed, magic classes are silenced, and mind classes have range 7. Called Shots unfortunately isn't instant, so Archer rares will have time to OHKO you with Headshot before they are disarmed.

PS If you are marked by a rare, assume you will die if you don't leave the rare's LOS within about half a turn. "Fun"


Last edited by voltteccer on Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:53 pm 
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voltteccer wrote:
Do you like getting hit by war hounds and ritches? Do you like getting put to sleep? Do you like being fearscaped? Do you like having Inner Demons used on you?

You don't?

Well if your weapon has range 9, you have 100% immunity to all of those things, and many other things as well.

This, by the way, is why Archer rares are the only thing that have a chance to kill you as new Archer. Melee classes are disarmed, magic classes are silenced, and mind classes have range 7.


So I've noticed I don't have a native visibility at that range? (I think? I'm at work right now, so.)

Any particular lantern for that, or just "get it so you can see 9 squares, any way you can?"

I've also noted some other classes seem to argue for stun immunity/blind immunity/etc? Or is the archer answer to this and all things "Fight from outside their range?"

...and if so, how do you deal with those charming close-quarter situations? Instantly bail out to long range when they happen?

Thanks again.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:20 pm
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voltteccer wrote:
Do you like getting hit by war hounds and ritches? Do you like getting put to sleep? Do you like being fearscaped? Do you like having Inner Demons used on you?

You don't?

Well if your weapon has range 9, you have 100% immunity to all of those things, and many other things as well.

This, by the way, is why Archer rares are the only thing that have a chance to kill you as new Archer. Melee classes are disarmed, magic classes are silenced, and mind classes have range 7. Called Shots unfortunately isn't instant, so Archer rares will have time to OHKO you with Headshot before they are disarmed.


Those werent problems for me as my runs with archer even when i used that bow. If range is that important for you, theres not much left to discuss because a better range bow will always be better for you so there isnt much i can say about that.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:05 pm
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voltteccer wrote:
Bow/Sling is now basically a choice between Rapid Shot's ridiculous attack speed, which is OPAF, and Concealment's 45% evasion chance, which is OPAF. The correct choice is Slings because you are taking PES at level 30.

bow lets you PES AM better and also isn't bad, like slings are

if range 9 is good range 12-13 is even better since you can Called Shots everything a turn before they come into los
finally lol if you're dying to enemy archers with this since Sentinel puts Shoot on CD for 5 turns which is even dumber than disarming them

FriedrichPsitalon wrote:
So I've noticed I don't have a native visibility at that range? (I think? I'm at work right now, so.)

Any particular lantern for that, or just "get it so you can see 9 squares, any way you can?"

I've also noted some other classes seem to argue for stun immunity/blind immunity/etc? Or is the archer answer to this and all things "Fight from outside their range?"

...and if so, how do you deal with those charming close-quarter situations? Instantly bail out to long range when they happen?

Thanks again.

All of the game's most dangerous areas except for High Peak are full-visibility. In darker areas it's just a matter of throwing on maybe 1-2 aux pieces of +light or +infravision gear or taking Tinkers (if you have EoR you should be doing this anyway) for Headlamp/Focus Lens. For lites you should first look out for a bright/watchleader's brass lantern in Derth and upgrade to Wintertide Phial/merchant randarts/Umbraphage if they ever show up.

As for getting into CQC situations it's pretty rare given that you have so many mobility skills and Escape especially is going to get you out of any fights barring being surrounded in Dark Crypt:1 (i'd put a point in disengage and tumble respectively since you can get a lot of mileage out of those two before resorting to Escape and archer generics aren't really tight)

Regarding status resistances i would try for 100% stun or confuse immunity depending on what drops but it's not crucial since as you said, you can fight outside of their range. This is especially true for stuns as very few have a range larger than 3.

_________________
<Shibari> You're full of shit
<darkgod #tome> ster is a troll
<Sheila> and ster, i do agree with you on most things game-related, but do try to not be such an ass!
<mex> your posts lead to people like me being abused and murdered


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:12 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:20 pm
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I made some tests with headshott and i can confirm now that at least mine is kinda bugged. If i use the hotkey it almost never misses, if i use the mouse click to activate the talent, it misses a lot. Dunno why, but thats happening with me.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:32 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm
Posts: 43
FriedrichPsitalon wrote:
I've also noted some other classes seem to argue for stun immunity/blind immunity/etc? Or is the archer answer to this and all things "Fight from outside their range?"

...and if so, how do you deal with those charming close-quarter situations? Instantly bail out to long range when they happen?

Every character wants stun/confuse immunity, so i treat that as a given barring class-specific stuff. The class-specific stuff for Archer is that every fight ends in about 5/6 game turns (or is at least close enough to ending that you aren't in any danger anymore). What this means is that you don't really need debuff protection. As long as you can cure the initial wave of debuffs, the important threats will all be dead long before you get more debuffs put on you.

Though I think if I played another Archer (nuArcher is mindbogglingly unfun so I plan to do that ****ING NEVER), I would get Draconic Will as my second prodigy, since damn near every fight will end before Draconic Will does and if you're gonna use stupid garbage like Trueshot you may as well go all the way and use stupid garbage like Draconic Will too.

As far as surprise close enemies go, it depends on what threat the enemy poses. If silence will solve the problem, you may as well do that while you're close so they don't have time to react. But if it was a summoner for example, it would be safer to buy yourself a turn with Sentinel and then use LOLEscape to get out of range 7.

To be fair the game is a joke as nuArcher so use a range 6 bow if you really want to make the game unpleasant for yourself lol you'll still be able to beat Insane Roguelike with it, but the point of a guide is to explain effective play so I will recommend not using bad weapons.

Quote:
bow lets you PES AM better

How so? The only difference I can see here is that slings have one extra damage-scaling stat.

Quote:
if range 9 is good range 12-13 is even better since you can Called Shots everything a turn before they come into los

Range 9 already gives you immunity to all the important threats, range 12 can't make you more immune. The only exception is Archer rares of course but they have Concealment so Called Shots from range 12 won't do anything but alert them and now your Called Shots is on cooldown.

Quote:
finally lol if you're dying to enemy archers with this since Sentinel puts Shoot on CD for 5 turns which is even dumber than disarming them

The reason they're dangerous is because they can OHKO you from range 10 if you don't disable them the first turn they are in your LOS. Anything you care about will be dead in like 3 turns Elite Boss or otherwise, so the danger of a particular enemy is purely based on how badly they can hurt you during their first 2 turns on screen, and Archer rares are the only thing that even poses a threat at all under those conditions.


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