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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:43 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 403
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Twist-Chi wrote:
Does Flexible Combat in turn trigger on-hit effects?

Of course it does.

Quote:
Does melee on-hit effects such as 20% cripple in turn trigger more Flexible Combat procs?

I don't think so, but it's my speculations.

Quote:
How do you deal with debuffs on NM as melee?

Killing thing faster then they can kill you?
Or Draconic Will and Spine of the World (I don't know exactly how last acts).

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:33 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:03 pm
Posts: 717
Twist-Chi wrote:
2. Does Flexible Combat trigger on defensive grappling? Does Flexible Combat in turn trigger on-hit effects? Does melee on-hit effects such as 20% cripple in turn trigger more Flexible Combat procs? I think it does but the logs aren't clear on where my extra hits are coming from.


If you're referring to talent-on-hit effects, then yes, those trigger Flexible Combat as normal. However, you cannot get recursive Flexible Combat procs. It's possible for you to punch someone, proc Cripple, proc Flexible Combat from that Cripple, then proc Cripple again from Flexible Combat, but you cannot proc Flexible Combat a second time from that second Cripple.

As for defensive grappling, as far as I can tell, Defensive Throw never actually makes an "attack" on the target--It directly checks accuracy vs defense instead of calling attackTarget--so it won't trigger Flexible Combat.

Quote:
4. I got a stone warden with eternal guard and spectral shield die in nightmare far east because of debuffs. Being stunned, disarmed, confused, etc repeatedly means no shield block = death. Even high saves with Power is Money and equips weren't enough and I couldnt find enough gear to give me status immunity. Infusions and skill-based status removal were insufficient as well. How do you deal with debuffs on NM as melee?


I've not won on Nightmare yet, I'm afraid, so someone else will surely have better advice, but it sounds like you could start by ditching Spectral Shield for a more defensive prodigy (eg Spine of the World or Draconic Will, as GlassGo recommends). While most shields only block physical damage, if your shield either resists or inflicts a damage type, your Block extends to that element as well. Furthermore, as a Stone Warden, you get two shields: If either shield covers an element, your combined Block value covers that element. So, if you've got a flaming shield in one hand and an icy shield in the other, your Block will apply to fire, cold, and physical damage.

The short of it is that you can probably get your Block to cover most dangerous elements just by juggling your egos properly. That second shield really makes all the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:09 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
Brawlers get Unflinching Resolve, which at 4/5 with decent con is a 50% chance to remove status effects every turn. On my nightmare zerker stuns and the like wouldn't stay on for more than 1-2 rounds generally. Most melee tend to get some sort of immunity or cleanse, like paladin's providence or marauder's riotborn.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:36 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:56 am
Posts: 645
People seem to underestimate the usefulness of Prox's Lucky Halfling Foot as well. The only time I use it as an apprentice turn-in is if I'm Halfling. Psychoport is often my first choice, but if I haven't found one, it takes something special to displace the foot, at least in the early game. I also agree with Mewtarthio's advice regarding Spectral Shield. Cauterize is one of my top choices and Stone Warden shouldn't have any trouble getting it, but even non-Magic melee can save up +Mag items.

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Last edited by Marson on Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:06 pm
Posts: 79
Twist-Chi wrote:
Putting this here since i got brawler questions of my own:


1. How viable is a DEF-based counterattacking/defensive grappling brawler in NM? In normal, most mobs melt just being next to a countering brawler like those 1vsMany kung-fu movies.


I've just won nightmare with a Dwarven Brawler and it was quite doable. Don't grapple. Striking all the way. Don't surround yourself with enemies. Your high defense will work, but not against groups of hi peak mobs.

2. Does Flexible Combat trigger on defensive grappling? Does Flexible Combat in turn trigger on-hit effects? Does melee on-hit effects such as 20% cripple in turn trigger more Flexible Combat procs? I think it does but the logs aren't clear on where my extra hits are coming from.

3. Is it possible for grappling to break due to spell or mindpower on-hit effects? I've had this problem after I switched to gloves with 10% dominate on-hit effect. I don't think I had this problem with my crippling or disarm gloves.

4. I got a stone warden with eternal guard and spectral shield die in nightmare far east because of debuffs. Being stunned, disarmed, confused, etc repeatedly means no shield block = death. Even high saves with Power is Money and equips weren't enough and I couldnt find enough gear to give me status immunity. Infusions and skill-based status removal were insufficient as well. How do you deal with debuffs on NM as melee?[/quote]

On NM as melee you really have to depend upon your unflinching resolve. If you don't resist the effect, run away and wait it out. I think you're mistake might be that you are seeking to remove it right away, it gets put back on and you are screwed. Better to back off a few steps...let unflinching take care of it, and save your infusions for really nasty stuff, like 280 per tick spider poisons.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:52 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 403
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Also, good Pro for Brawler is Bloodspring or Corrapted Shell - second one even better with Ghoul.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:12 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:01 am
Posts: 3
So I got a nightmare brawler to the far-east and died. But I feel I can do better with him than with my stone warden. Some thoughts:

On grappling - I think I figured out why the mobs could break free on my normal run. Its because it is possible to do a save throw or a status debuff broke the grapple. (correction if wrong) Mobs on my nightmare run break free more often despite still being in range and my gloves having no proc effects.

Still, Clinch->Takedown combo is the best AoE brawlers have and I'll continue to take it when I do another brawler run.


On DEF - Unfortunately its not as effective. Mobs have too high of an accuracy boost especially in the optional dungeons where they get at least +10 more levels than you. Still helps you dodge here and there but not something to prioritize highly.


On being debuffed - I really like Unflinching Resolve as well. With maxed Unified Body and gear stats, its possible to have more than 100 points in Str, Dex, Con and Cun. Still, you get piled on with more debuffs than what Unflinching Resolve can cleanse at times and its only around 50% to cleanse 1 debuff per turn at best. I like the suggestions to take status immunity prodigies to help.


On items - My skelly brawler got screwed getting 3 antimagic randart gloves from the merchant. I never found any of the T5 normal artifact gloves. Ugh. I thought the patch notes mentioned skellies can't get antimagic equips from the merchant?


Time to take a short break. I'm still bummed losing a promising brawler but I'll definitely win next time. Brawlers are great fun to play. Thanks for all the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:03 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:28 am
Posts: 19
I reached lvl 28 with my brawler today and I must say they do feel a lot better than before the last update.
I do play on normal skill and I actually did die twice, but that were just sloppy moves. Someone that plays roguelike would never died there, but I play too hastily sometimes.
All the real tricky situations, bosses/ vaults were I'm actully concentrated were done quite easily.

If I manage to finish the game with this char I will try to write down what skills And tactics I used. The real difficult zones still have to come, but I like my mobility and dmg so far.

Also unified body that boosts your str and con is very powerful imo, specially early on. You can totally ignore putting points into con, because of that skill and beeline 60 points into cun and dex.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:30 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 403
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Well, it's almost impossible to win Dark Crypt with Nightmare Brawler.
So, this class strongly lose attraction for me.
Bye, Brawler.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:47 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:28 am
Posts: 19
GlassGo wrote:
Well, it's almost impossible to win Dark Crypt with Nightmare Brawler.
So, this class strongly lose attraction for me.
Bye, Brawler.


Interesting. With so many leap options and speed buffs it was a breeze for me on normal.
Dark Crypt can be a killer for me on normal sometimes, but my mobility was so good. I also used Nature Eyes to see where the mobs were and lured them out of their rooms around a corner. Ofcourse sometimes there was a mage that swapped places with me putting me in the middle of the room full of mages. Still didn't really get into problems, but I'm sure at Nightmare it's a bit different :)


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:03 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 403
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
The problem is in HUGE burst of damage, sir.
Last char was Skeleton, he had three shield summary 1000, healing ~600, 800+ hp, and first boss almost kill me.
The problem partially was in lack of see invisible, but I don't think if he had see invis skill, it changed much.
He actually had gloves with a Track - without this there is nothing to do in Crypt on Nightmare.
So, second boss killed my char.
http://te4.org/characters/35987/tome/18 ... 16d40acfa2 you can see, he was equipped fine.
If I could find Untoucheble, it would be another matter of course.

Well, DC isn't so unwinnable by Brawlers, but based on my experience, Solipsist (or another class) can do it easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:28 am
Posts: 19
No doubt that other classes can do it more easily. As far as I know the archmage is very populair among the hardest difficulties.

I see that we have kind of similar build and your probably a lot more experienced in this game than I am so I believe you when you say it's rough to make it with an brawler.

I wish I had the patience to play roguelike, but as I allready mentioned that my deaths usually come from silly moves. Not thinking, just bumping. I really need to change my attitude for roguelike.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:25 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 403
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Kwibus wrote:
I wish I had the patience to play roguelike, but as I allready mentioned that my deaths usually come from silly moves. Not thinking, just bumping. I really need to change my attitude for roguelike.
This will come with experience.
And, as I said, Untouchable make a real difference.

Also, come to think of different build - drop that crap, I mean Re-assemble, and other Skeleton generic skills, except Bone Shield 3-4, and put skillpoints into Reflex Defense and Mobile Defence.
If you get good items with decent Defence, this allow cut incoming damage, as I remember, in Crypt it result in ~120 less dmg with every heavy hit you take.

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Last edited by GlassGo on Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawler question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:10 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:28 am
Posts: 19
GlassGo wrote:
Kwibus wrote:
I wish I had the patience to play roguelike, but as I allready mentioned that my deaths usually come from silly moves. Not thinking, just bumping. I really need to change my attitude for roguelike.
This will come with experience.
And, as I said, Untouchable make a real difference.

Also, come to think of different build - drop that crap, I mean Re-assemble, and other Skeleton generic skills, except Bone Shield 3-4, and put skillpoints into Reflex defense and Mobile Defence.
If you get good items with decent Defence, this allow cut incoming damage, as I remember, in Crypt it result in ~120 less dmg with every heavy hit you take.


I'm using a Thalore so I don't have the extra shields, only good resists and dmg reduction.

I'm working toward relfex defense right now, but don't have it at lvl 34 yet. So far i'm still cruising and having an easy time really. Just arrived in the east after doing 2 far portals before heading there. Unfortunately I don't have the untouchable as well, which would be even better. So far i'm convinced I will reach lvl50 and beat the final boss with this char. Next char should be on nightmare though.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawler questions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 403
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
It is Normal, but I talked about Nightmare.
Your tactic is'n works on Nightmare, pal.

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