ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:32 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5647
Really haven't been following this thread at all...

However two things:
Should I ever get around to tackling Staff talents again, (You know, like not having three different Staff categories in my addons, :wink: ) I would have Staff Mastery as the slot 1 talent and give Channel Staff as a free talent. There is no need to have two talents for boosting the damage of Channel Staff. Its such a basic thing that it is not worth allowing anyone to spend 10 points into it.

Secondly, the Steam issue: Check that the steam id for the addon is the same on both te4.org and steam. Correct if it isn't.
If it still won't upload, just try again a different time. It usually an issue of 'it can't do it right now', rather than 'it can't do it at all'.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:59 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
HousePet wrote:
Really haven't been following this thread at all...

However two things:
Should I ever get around to tackling Staff talents again, (You know, like not having three different Staff categories in my addons, :wink: ) I would have Staff Mastery as the slot 1 talent and give Channel Staff as a free talent. There is no need to have two talents for boosting the damage of Channel Staff. Its such a basic thing that it is not worth allowing anyone to spend 10 points into it.

Secondly, the Steam issue: Check that the steam id for the addon is the same on both te4.org and steam. Correct if it isn't.
If it still won't upload, just try again a different time. It usually an issue of 'it can't do it right now', rather than 'it can't do it at all'.

Steam upload worked when I tried it a bit ago, finally.

I think I will just make channel staff an inherent ability tomorrow sometime. I'm not sure what to replace it with that thematically fits an alchemist. Could easily have it be the equivalent of steady shot or just a beam, but neither one feels very distinct.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:25 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
Nevuk wrote:
HousePet wrote:
Really haven't been following this thread at all...

However two things:
Should I ever get around to tackling Staff talents again, (You know, like not having three different Staff categories in my addons, :wink: ) I would have Staff Mastery as the slot 1 talent and give Channel Staff as a free talent. There is no need to have two talents for boosting the damage of Channel Staff. Its such a basic thing that it is not worth allowing anyone to spend 10 points into it.

Secondly, the Steam issue: Check that the steam id for the addon is the same on both te4.org and steam. Correct if it isn't.
If it still won't upload, just try again a different time. It usually an issue of 'it can't do it right now', rather than 'it can't do it at all'.

Steam upload worked when I tried it a bit ago, finally.

I think I will just make channel staff an inherent ability tomorrow sometime. I'm not sure what to replace it with that thematically fits an alchemist. Could easily have it be the equivalent of steady shot or just a beam, but neither one feels very distinct.

So I did that, but it's in a bit of a buggy state right now. Basically you can't unlearn any staff technique because you haven't learned channel staff. I think that's a result of me overloading instead of using hooks, so I'm converting my code to the latter approach now, but it'll take a bit before the next release.

What it'll look like :
Channel Staff a built-in, 130% damage ranged attack.
Staff mastery is now the first item in staff combat tree.

New ability (which is working, but I want to get the game to not get upset if you try to unlearn something before release.

Quote:
name = "Desperate Blast",
range = 4
cooldown = 10,
mana = 20,
self:combatTalentWeaponDamage(t, 1.7, 2.5)
In desperate times, you can overload your channel staff with extra mana. This will increase the damage and cause the spell to knockback,
but change the damage to a physical type, and decrease the range. Does %d%% staff damage.


Last edited by Nevuk on Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:29 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
Just pushed out 0.5.0 .
Main highlight is that I'm no longer overloading everything, but there's some other changes :

Code:
0.5.0
Channel staff is now a built in attack that costs no talent points and deals 100% weapon damage with a +20% magic modifier.
Staff mastery is moved to the first position in the staff combat tree.
New talent takes the second spot in the tree :
Desperate Blast - In desperate times, you can overload your channel staff with five times as much mana. This will increase the damage and cause the spell to knockback, but changes the damage to a physical type, and decreases the range.
Blunt thrust is the third item in the tree, and never misses from talent level 1.
Defensive posture is fourth in the tree, with a lowered cap (now scales from 9 armor/defense at level 1 to 18 at level 5).

Body of Fire
Now only targets 1 creature
Sustain cost further reduced, mana drain increased
(Still does MUCH more damage than in normal tome)

Golem portal now has a 100% chance from level 1 of redirecting attention onto your golem, cooldown scales with talent level. 


 

Logic behind body of fire change : the alchemist has no need for another spell that is only good for killing weak, numerous creatures. They rather need abilities that are better in smaller numbers. It's now a very strong damage spell, but less brainless - not good vs summoners, or in certain situations with lots of enemies.


I now have a sort of vision for where I'm trying to get alchemist to be : Idea is to make alchemist a short to mid ranged class with high burst and mana problems, but decent tankiness. ToME seems somewhat lacking in shorter range, non melee classes, so it's a niche they can fill. Their golem can lock people into place for them to wail on, and they have some other talents to help if someone does get into melee range (shortrange aoe stuns, ranged knockbacks, etc.). Their worst enemies are going to be long ranged ones, or immovable melee antimagic types.

Let me know if the alchemist is too weak again after these changes (the channel staff one I was torn on giving it a 120-130% modifier or not, but erred towards caution).

I may take a break from developing further for a while, I have a sinus infection and it's really aggravating. If there's a bug or a balance suggestion/change I'd be happy to do that, however.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
I'm mostly finalized on a new tree. It'll be mostly defensive, though it'll enable a new damage infusion type (blight currently, though I'd take other suggestions). I'm somewhat proud of this defense option, as it's fairly unique and alchemist flavored. Not sure how balanced it is right now though.

I currently need a fourth talent for the tree, was thinking either aoe blight damage or something boring like a passive that increases heal mod. This'll be a locked talent tree. I also modified some of the talents to explain why you don't need reusable alchemist gems - they're a focus to amplify your raw mana.

Code:
Bloody Infusion :
You infuse your jewelcraft with your own vitality, causing your gems to drip with corrupted blood. Your throw bombs deal corrupted blight damage which may disarm. All blight damage you do is increased by %d%%, and blight damage penetration increased by %d%%. You cannot have more than one alchemist infusion sustain active at once.

Bloody Armor:
Active magical effect.
Use your gem to carve mystical symbols on your body in blood. The resulting energies will protect you after some initial damage. Reduces all damage taken by a flat amount equal to double the gem power for %d turns. Damage reduction scales with the quality of the wielded gem.

Gem Mastery:   
Enable your gem armor to utilize the effects of gems. When damage is taken, beneficial effects of gem occur on every instance of damage. Raw Talent level 1 enables mana regeneration gems, 3 enables garnets, and 5 enables bloodstone   


Initially I was going to set it so that the amount of times healing could occur per turn were equal to raw talent level rather than restricting healing to gem quality, but I wasn't able to program it. It would be much easier to get it so that it could heal/regenerate mana once per turn, but I'm unsure if that would really be worth that many class points. For reference, this would reduce damage instances by 40-190 damage depending on gem quality
(diamond offers 190, spinel 40. Bloodstone would offer 100 and deal less damage than other tier 5 to offset). I could also try to create some unique beneficial effects for some of the other gems, but that'd be a deeper project.

Still trying to get it so that bloody armor actually deals damage when you use it (this may be unnecessary, but I'm not sure).


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Thunderclap still destroys gems.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:20 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 601
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Blight seems like a clash thematically to me. The flavor text suggests that you have corrupted blood, a defining aspect of Defilers subclasses. Might make sense if it was gated behind siding with the Grand Corruptor or something, but even still, I would suggest going with something else. Arcane makes the most sense to me. It's already associated with magery, and it could explain all of the effects you have so far.... because arcane = Magic with a capital 'm'and can do anything.('You infuse your jewlcraft with raw mana, causing your gems to pulse with Arcane energy'. Arcane Armor: Use your pulsing gem to draw an arcane rune in the air before you, creating at ward that... etc. Could change disarm to silence and/or manaburn on infusion, as they are common effects associated with Arcane, but I'm not sure if Alch's have either of those already. Disarm would still be fine, too. Also, you could make the teir 4 talent tie in with Aether Permeation. I don't really have an idea for that off the top of my head, but it would tie into both defensive and arcane themes. )

As for limiting the number of times a thing can occur in one turn, there's actually an established mechanism for that in the ToME module. Every actor has a turn_procs field which initialized to an empty table at the beginning of each turn. What you put in the field can be anything, so in this case you want to use a number and check for the limit and then increment it each time you trigger your effect if it is less than the limit. Something like:
Code:
self.turn_procs.gem_mastery = self.turn_procs.gem_mastery or 0 -- check for the value, or set it to zero if we haven't triggered the talent yet this turn
self.turn_procs.gem_mastery = self.turn_procs.gem_mastery + 1 -- increment by 1
if self.turn_procs.gem_mastery > [your limit, however you have defined it] then return end -- check the limit, return nothing if we exceed it, call stops here
[then whatever your current code for firing off the effect is]


As for making bloody armor deal damage... I'm guessing you're using a callback to reduce the damage when it's coming in, and want to fire either a portion that damage or a flat amount back at them? I did something like that for Dark Priest, and it was definitely the trickiest thing I had done at the time... it was a sustain, but the principle should be the same.

Er. Actually, let me just find the code so you don't have to dig through the addon. The structure is embarrassingly bad. My newer mods are better, I swear. At any rate... *blows off dust*
Code:
callbackOnHit = function(self, t, cb, src)
   if self:isTalentActive(self.T_K_ARCANE_REVERSAL) then -- only here because my talent is a sustain. also note this was written to be called from a talent, but you could call it from an effect instead without changing much
      if src and src.x and src.y and src.takeHit then -- make sure the source has a location and can take a hit
         local chance = t.getRChance(self, t) -- random checks pertaining to the limits on my talent
         if self:getTalentLevelRaw(t) >= 3 then
            if cb.value >= self.life/3 then
               chance = 100
            elseif cb.value <= self.life/20 then
               chance = 0
            end
         elseif cb.value <= self.life/20 then
            chance = 0
         end
         local dist = core.fov.distance(self.x, self.y, src.x, src.y)
         if dist >=3 and self.mana >= 16 and rng.percent(chance) then -- after here is where we fire off the damage
            local tg = {type="bolt", 10, talent=t, display={particle="arrow", particle_args={tile="particles_images/darkest_light"}}} -- define the target, if you want a projectile
            self:projectile(tg, src.x, src.y, DamageType.K_ARCANE_NUMB, self:spellCrit(cb.value), nil) -- it doesn't have to be a projectile
            self:incMana(-15)
            self:forceUseTalent(self.T_K_ARCANE_REVERSAL, {ignore_energy=true})
            cb.value = 0 -- this is where we negate the damge (or set it to a reduced value, if that's what you want)
            return cb -- return cb or it will be like the hit never happened
         end
      end
   end
end,

If you just want to deal damage rather than fire a projectile, just leave out the target and use something like:
Code:
DamageType:get(DamageType.ARCANE).projector(self, src.x, src.y, DamageType.ARCANE, damage) -- damage here is a variable... and use whichever damage type you like ;D



The tricky bit was getting it so it would only react to damage from things that could actually be hit back. That's what the src.takeHit, src.x and src.y checks are for.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:10 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
nsrr wrote:
Blight seems like a clash thematically to me. The flavor text suggests that you have corrupted blood, a defining aspect of Defilers subclasses. Might make sense if it was gated behind siding with the Grand Corruptor or something, but even still, I would suggest going with something else. Arcane makes the most sense to me. It's already associated with magery, and it could explain all of the effects you have so far.... because arcane = Magic with a capital 'm'and can do anything.('You infuse your jewlcraft with raw mana, causing your gems to pulse with Arcane energy'. Arcane Armor: Use your pulsing gem to draw an arcane rune in the air before you, creating at ward that... etc. Could change disarm to silence and/or manaburn on infusion, as they are common effects associated with Arcane, but I'm not sure if Alch's have either of those already. Disarm would still be fine, too. Also, you could make the teir 4 talent tie in with Aether Permeation. I don't really have an idea for that off the top of my head, but it would tie into both defensive and arcane themes. )

As for limiting the number of times a thing can occur in one turn, there's actually an established mechanism for that in the ToME module. Every actor has a turn_procs field which initialized to an empty table at the beginning of each turn. What you put in the field can be anything, so in this case you want to use a number and check for the limit and then increment it each time you trigger your effect if it is less than the limit. Something like:
Code:
self.turn_procs.gem_mastery = self.turn_procs.gem_mastery or 0 -- check for the value, or set it to zero if we haven't triggered the talent yet this turn
self.turn_procs.gem_mastery = self.turn_procs.gem_mastery + 1 -- increment by 1
if self.turn_procs.gem_mastery > [your limit, however you have defined it] then return end -- check the limit, return nothing if we exceed it, call stops here
[then whatever your current code for firing off the effect is]


As for making bloody armor deal damage... I'm guessing you're using a callback to reduce the damage when it's coming in, and want to fire either a portion that damage or a flat amount back at them? I did something like that for Dark Priest, and it was definitely the trickiest thing I had done at the time... it was a sustain, but the principle should be the same.

Er. Actually, let me just find the code so you don't have to dig through the addon. The structure is embarrassingly bad. My newer mods are better, I swear. At any rate... *blows off dust*
Code:
callbackOnHit = function(self, t, cb, src)
   if self:isTalentActive(self.T_K_ARCANE_REVERSAL) then -- only here because my talent is a sustain. also note this was written to be called from a talent, but you could call it from an effect instead without changing much
      if src and src.x and src.y and src.takeHit then -- make sure the source has a location and can take a hit
         local chance = t.getRChance(self, t) -- random checks pertaining to the limits on my talent
         if self:getTalentLevelRaw(t) >= 3 then
            if cb.value >= self.life/3 then
               chance = 100
            elseif cb.value <= self.life/20 then
               chance = 0
            end
         elseif cb.value <= self.life/20 then
            chance = 0
         end
         local dist = core.fov.distance(self.x, self.y, src.x, src.y)
         if dist >=3 and self.mana >= 16 and rng.percent(chance) then -- after here is where we fire off the damage
            local tg = {type="bolt", 10, talent=t, display={particle="arrow", particle_args={tile="particles_images/darkest_light"}}} -- define the target, if you want a projectile
            self:projectile(tg, src.x, src.y, DamageType.K_ARCANE_NUMB, self:spellCrit(cb.value), nil) -- it doesn't have to be a projectile
            self:incMana(-15)
            self:forceUseTalent(self.T_K_ARCANE_REVERSAL, {ignore_energy=true})
            cb.value = 0 -- this is where we negate the damge (or set it to a reduced value, if that's what you want)
            return cb -- return cb or it will be like the hit never happened
         end
      end
   end
end,

If you just want to deal damage rather than fire a projectile, just leave out the target and use something like:
Code:
DamageType:get(DamageType.ARCANE).projector(self, src.x, src.y, DamageType.ARCANE, damage) -- damage here is a variable... and use whichever damage type you like ;D



The tricky bit was getting it so it would only react to damage from things that could actually be hit back. That's what the src.takeHit, src.x and src.y checks are for.

Ah, I want to have there be a slight HP cost to activating the talent - something like 10-15% of max hp, to make it a panic button that still requires some thought - but like I said, this might not be necessary. I don't think the alchemist needs anymore damage on being hit talents.

Arcane might be a better fit - my only other idea was to make it physical + bleed, but that seemed less useful. Are there any arcane classes besides Archmage and antimagic? I can't recall.

The idea would have been to have it locked behind siding with the grand corruptor for the blight one, but survability is important enough it would make sense to be unlocked from the start - giving two survivability categories, advanced golemancy and bloody gems/jewelcraft (would probably rename it to jewelcraft if I went to arcane damage type. Would make sense for it to be locked behind secret city in that case, an easy, early unlock). Golem may need some survivability buffs to compete. Vision is that golemancy should be better for longer, 1v1 fights while jewelcraft is better vs large groups and in shorter fights.

It'd be pretty simple to have the fourth talent be something like "increases aether resistance by 0.2 * rawtalentlevel during jeweled armor and increases aether resist cap by 30%". (Numbers could easily be tweaked, but aether is a pretty rare damage type and aether permeation isn't exactly amazing even with that, due to how many talent points it'd take). Idea is currently to make armor extremely strong but have lowish duration.

minmay wrote:
Thunderclap still destroys gems.

Thanks, I'll get on that later tonight (I'm in class at the moment). I also forgot to adjust the mana cost of throw bomb when I switched away from overloading.

edit : fixed those in 0.5.1, I hope.

Also, my idea to make advanced golemancy more competitive :
Code:
advanced golemancy talents each add 1 talent level to a generic for your golem  per raw talent level
life tap = thick skin
gem golem = armor training
supercharge golem = weapons accuracy
runic golem = weapons training

Would that help? (Would mean you can get golem to 10/5 if you really tried, not sure how well they scale).


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:28 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 601
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Nevuk wrote:
Ah, I want to have there be a slight HP cost to activating the talent - something like 10-15% of max hp, to make it a panic button that still requires some thought - but like I said, this might not be necessary. I don't think the alchemist needs anymore damage on being hit talents.

Ah, totally misread your meaning. I missed the 'after some initial damage' part in the description. Yeah, I think they have damage on hit covered pretty well. As for a life cost, if you decide it warrants it, the easiest way to change an actor's life by a certain amount is to just manually change it. Something like this in the 'activate' code:
Code:
local hit = self.max_life * 0.1
self.life = self.life - hit

Probably also want to make sure it can't be used if you don't have enough life for the cost.

Don't really have any ideas on the golem, myself. I've never really made it far enough with an Alch to play around with the locked trees much.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:37 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5647
Arcane Blade and Necromancer also have Arcane damage.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:30 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
HousePet wrote:
Arcane Blade and Necromancer also have Arcane damage.

I knew I was forgetting something. Alchemists will only have 1 arcane damage spell with this, so I think it'll fit in.


I was about to upload 0.6.0 then had to spend an hour chasing around a formatting bug on an info function that I ran into by accidentally hitting space or something. It's done, but I don't want to look at a lua function for at least another day.

Code:
0.6.0-
Minor tweaks :
Caustic golem can now proc twice per round, though the chance is low.

New locked tree : Jewelcraft. A tree that enables an arcane damage throw bomb infusion and a powerful flat damage reduction ability that is further improved by other abilities in the tree.

"Aether Infusion"
You infuse your gems with mystical aether, a technique taught in Angolwen to those few alchemists who have visited. Your thrown bombs deal arcane damage which may disarm.
All arcane damage you do is increased by %d%%, and arcane damage penetration increased by %d%%. As alchemists were not raised in Angolwen, their lessened mastery over arcane elements results in less damage penetration than is granted by other infusions.
"Jeweled Armor"
Use your gem to focus energy through mystical symbols on your body, creating ethereal jeweled armor. The resulting energies will protect you. Reduces all damage taken by %d for %d turns. Damage reduction scales with the quality of the wielded gem, and is equal to 1.5 times gem power.
"Gem Mastery"
Enable your gem armor to utilize the effects of gems. When damage is taken, beneficial effects of gem will occur on each instance of damage, up to %d times per turn. Beneficial effects are found on Spinel, Aquamarine, Garnet, and Bloodstone. Note : Garnet and Bloodstone have lower overall power than other gems of their tier. (The number of times the effect can occur per turn are equal to the raw talent level of gem mastery)
"Aether Embrace"
Your jewel armor synchronizes your with the aether existing around you, rather than merely your physical existence. Increases Arcane resistance by (Raw talent level*20) and Arcane resistance cap by (raw talent level * 3) while jeweled armor is active. Learning this talent exposes you to the void of space.



WIP:
The shader effect on Jeweled Armor. Currently it's just a very shiny white, but I have very little experience with these things.
Balancing (not sure if this category is too strong or too weak? I feel like it may be too strong, but am unsure).
Future plans :
Add way for alchemists to talk to the mage guy who taunts you and get the angolwen starter zone quest, completion will unlock jewelcraft tree (currently being exposed to void of space is a workaround for aether permeation).
Give some beneficial effects to more gems (? maybe)
Alter stoned condition to be different - no more instakill, fewer enemies resist it. Maybe just make it a ranged, beaming, stun?
Learn how to make golem's equipped helm removable on character sheet
Buff advanced golemancy as earlier described.
Long off :
Create a hybrid steam version of alchemist
(perhaps take away all but fire infusion categories, leave golemancy, give steam abilities?)
Change gem portal to something different.


The alternate idea I had for a 4th talent when this was a blood tree was going to be letting the alchemist "equip" a gem into their body (but it'd be permanent and unremovable). I think I like this tree better, even if the last talent is a little boring.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:21 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 689
Nevuk wrote:
Would that help? (Would mean you can get golem to 10/5 if you really tried, not sure how well they scale).

TERRIFYINGLY.
you probably don't want to do this on purpose. ;P


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:44 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:10 am
Posts: 114
astralInferno wrote:
Nevuk wrote:
Would that help? (Would mean you can get golem to 10/5 if you really tried, not sure how well they scale).

TERRIFYINGLY.
you probably don't want to do this on purpose. ;P


Seconded. Not only is it completely over the top, its also bad design in that it makes the standard golemancy strictly worse than advanced golemancy.

I'm gonna be frank: Overall I think this mod has started with some faulty assumptions about both the power level of the alchemist, the reasons its considered a problematic class, and the methods with which to combat this.

The alchemist is a bit weak, but its not so weak to be unplayable or so thst all the talents need buffs. There has been insane winners of alchemists, after all.

It's a fool's quest to try to balance something based on its performance in madness, when one doesnt have much in the way of insane or madness wins. I'm not saying you can't make a great mod or that you're a bad player (heck, ive never even beaten nightmare!) but that its hard to balance something without knowing the meta. Aim for balancing around nightmare, as that's the difficulty you seem most experienced with.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:12 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
sajberhippien wrote:
astralInferno wrote:
Nevuk wrote:
Would that help? (Would mean you can get golem to 10/5 if you really tried, not sure how well they scale).

TERRIFYINGLY.
you probably don't want to do this on purpose. ;P


Seconded. Not only is it completely over the top, its also bad design in that it makes the standard golemancy strictly worse than advanced golemancy.

I'm gonna be frank: Overall I think this mod has started with some faulty assumptions about both the power level of the alchemist, the reasons its considered a problematic class, and the methods with which to combat this.

The alchemist is a bit weak, but its not so weak to be unplayable or so thst all the talents need buffs. There has been insane winners of alchemists, after all.

It's a fool's quest to try to balance something based on its performance in madness, when one doesnt have much in the way of insane or madness wins. I'm not saying you can't make a great mod or that you're a bad player (heck, ive never even beaten nightmare!) but that its hard to balance something without knowing the meta. Aim for balancing around nightmare, as that's the difficulty you seem most experienced with.

That's fair. I'm actually not trying to make it better at insane - I'm using "if it's stronger at insane than sawbutcher, there's a problem" as a balancing guideline, but I have literally 0 experience with modding tome before this. My experience with madness is that if you don't have an absolutely broken defensive ability, the class probably isn't viable (I'm pretty sure an alchemist with a 3x buff to its damage numbers is still going to be unable to complete madness, and nothing has been touched that far). I've mostly been play testing on nightmare, and if it's literally thoughtless bomb spamming I do go and change some numbers, but I've had less time the last couple of days to do it due to some obligations and being more interested in the newer tree.

I'm also definitely not claiming it's balanced currently- that's now my #1 priority, to make it more balanced, but I need feedback from people on that. (Note that this version of throw bombs may actually do less damage under a lot of circumstances, as explosion expert scales less, which is why I've left some of the more ridiculous early numbers in place). I'm mostly happy with the actual function of the class now.

Also, I have no issues admitting I'm wrong on a balance issue - 3x damage channel staff was way over the top, and housepet correctly identified the real problem - it doesn't make sense to have it as a generic talent at all. This version of channel staff is probably technically weaker than vanilla channel staff, but you don't need 10 generics to get it there.

I will admit it did start out as "just buff everything", in a kind of memeish fashion, but most of the changes since like... 0.2.0 have been to things I think are conceptually problematic - like golem being unable to use his physical abilities in melee range, or body of fire being yet another aoe damage spell on a class that already has too many (and was a mostly useless ability on top of that). No longer consuming gems was due to conversations in chat with Minmay and others about what they most disliked about the class, the resistance penetration was added because of similar conversations. Overall Alchemist is still probably buffed, but it needs a lot of playtesting with things like throw bomb being totally rescaled.

There are things I'm unsure of like lowering the cast period of refit golem, but I frankly don't see the purpose of smoke bomb without that sort of change (the buff to golem hp on revival is probably too much, but I feel silly changing only 1 fairly small thing for a balance patch unless there's also some bugs). Really, I'm unsure of pretty much all the numbers - a bunch of their skills just had fundamentally lower damage values than most other classes, with less utility to offset it, so I buffed them, but that may not be necessary.

I've beaten the game with alchemist back when it was a far weaker class (yes, really, back when it had heat), but I was kind of disappointed to come back to the game years later and see other problematic classes get majorly overhauled (archer) while alchemist, one of the earliest classes, was relatively untouched on what made it really problematic(to me, the problem is that it's a one trick pony - almost useless outside of throw bomb). Plus it gives me some hands-on experience with another programming language.

Now that I am having active feedback, I will throw out an idea in the thread and see if it's too far if I really have no idea before just slapping it in. (I will say the weapons training suggestion was made in view of the 1.6.0 changes, where it'd strictly be a buff to golem's weapon damage, not to its physical power). I may still add thick skin to life tap, but that's more because I think lifetap is a kind of odd ability. Jewelcraft is a unique beast, and not as ridiculous as I first thought, though I'm sure the numbers need tweaked (initially I had it at blocking gem power per instance instead of gem power *1.5 but I was unsure how useful it would really be to block at most 95 damage per instance for 4-8 turns, for a cat point and a lot of talent points). I personally find it easier to start too high and tune down.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:49 pm
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Balance is always a finicky thing. People will always have their own way of doing it.

I do agree with the idea of at least having the class viable on nightmare. If players are clever (and lucky) enough, they can get through insane. I would never try to balance for madness, as that just too much lol.

I am definitely keeping my eye on this addon. I need to return to ToME and play with more of the addon stuff, now that it seems to be coming back a bit.


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