ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
Posts: 610
I tried the race and the speed issue seem terribly broken.
Presently I have only invested 1 point in Millipede and my global speed on the Char sheet is 24%, while it should around 97%...
This makes a slight difference and it does not seem to be good for my char survivability...
No other speed reducing effect or item, of course...

Let's hope I find Tarrasca :(


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:28 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:44 am
Posts: 12
ghostbuster wrote:
I tried the race and the speed issue seem terribly broken.
Presently I have only invested 1 point in Millipede and my global speed on the Char sheet is 24%, while it should around 97%...
This makes a slight difference and it does not seem to be good for my char survivability...
No other speed reducing effect or item, of course...

Let's hope I find Tarrasca :(


That is extremely odd, as I've been playtesting the addon myself extensively and haven't run across any such problems with the speed. The current problem with the speed penalties, is that instead of adding a -3% penalty to global speed, each point is multiplying the global speed by 0.97 which results in a less severe speed penalty (~26% with all pts in Millipede, hecatonchires and a category point, as opposed to 36% if it was applied additively). This is a result of using global_speed_add instead of global_speed or global_speed_base, however out of all 3 options, global_speed_add is the one that has the least undesirable traits associated with it, as the other two cause some really strange issues.

Are you sure there no other mod interactions going on? I can't think of how something could be incompatible with this, but stranger things have happened.

I will take a look into it regardless, though. :shock:

Edit: took a glance at the code, apparently I forgot to set it back to global_speed_add after doing some tests with global_speed_base, but even then it doesn't explain what you were experiencing. Pushed a small hotfix with replacing it with global_speed_add, anyway, for good measure, hopefully it fixes your issue. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 643
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Just a bump to let you know that there may have been a problem with your upload of that hot fix. There doesn't seem to be new version on te4.org, and the most recent one that is up still has global_speed_base.

Also, not sure if you caught my message on IRC the other night, as I crashed shortly afterwards. Basically the gist of it is that there's a problem with speed effect calculations if the you change global_speed_base. The problem occurs as effects that reduce your global speed with a global_speed_add temp value (such as Slow) are added and removed. When the value is removed, the amount to adjust global speed is calculated incorrectly due to the reduced base global speed. The result is a net loss in speed. So, even with only a 3% reduction, your global speed can nose dive after getting hit by Slow a few a times (which can add up pretty quickly with all the slimes and plants and such that use slimespit). It's not really your code that's at fault, it's a bug in the engine... but the base game never adjusts global_speed_base, so it doesn't become an issue.

For what it's worth, I would just label it as a 'global speed penalty' and leave it as is. It may be a little unintuitive, but it does function the same as other global speed penalties. Global speed loss is really harsh, and even the values generated by global_speed_add are maybe a little too high compared to what you get in return.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:45 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:44 am
Posts: 12
nsrr wrote:
Just a bump to let you know that there may have been a problem with your upload of that hot fix. There doesn't seem to be new version on te4.org, and the most recent one that is up still has global_speed_base.

Also, not sure if you caught my message on IRC the other night, as I crashed shortly afterwards. Basically the gist of it is that there's a problem with speed effect calculations if the you change global_speed_base. The problem occurs as effects that reduce your global speed with a global_speed_add temp value (such as Slow) are added and removed. When the value is removed, the amount to adjust global speed is calculated incorrectly due to the reduced base global speed. The result is a net loss in speed. So, even with only a 3% reduction, your global speed can nose dive after getting hit by Slow a few a times (which can add up pretty quickly with all the slimes and plants and such that use slimespit). It's not really your code that's at fault, it's a bug in the engine... but the base game never adjusts global_speed_base, so it doesn't become an issue.

For what it's worth, I would just label it as a 'global speed penalty' and leave it as is. It may be a little unintuitive, but it does function the same as other global speed penalties. Global speed loss is really harsh, and even the values generated by global_speed_add are maybe a little too high compared to what you get in return.


Ah, I see. I did fiddle around with it a bit adding and removing talent points tosee if that was the cause, but wasn't aware it was a speed interaction issue.

I'll try uploading it again, I'm not sure why it didn't update properly, I am positive I changed everything in the talents file. :?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:17 pm
Posts: 1457
... since asking would involve a lot less effort than testing or code diving, I have to ask. What's going on with unarmed attacks when you're wearing two gloves? Tooling around with an abom brawler (which is somewhat hilarious, mostly due to the striking stance/assimilate interaction*), and finally got the glove talent maxed out and letting me do stuff, and it's... somewhat hard to passively figure out exactly what's going on.

I do know the damage is increasing,** and it's giving stats and proc chances from both, but it's also not giving me two punches instead of one, so I'm confused enough I was half thinking of testing or code diving before I remembered asking involves less not!punching-things-to-death. It kinda' looks like it's just sorta' merging both sets of weapon data into a single blob, but it's hard to tell. Also there's some things a bit off with that conclusion, since weapon speed is taking the slowest instead of some sort of combination of the two.

*The flat damage reduction stripping damage from the bleed, cutting chunks off that 30% damage, ehehe. Flat phys/all reduction is probably going to be stronger than usual for this race.

** Substantially enough I'm kinda' wondering if there's some kind of odd interaction going, like the damage ranges adding on to one another or somethin'.

---

... other than that, it's definitely pretty enjoyable, or at the very least meshes well with how I like to play (pretty passively, bumping everything until it dies, etc., etc.). The yanks deal with pinning quite nicely (though the arm one is obviously kiiiinda' useless for a brawler, heh), assimilation's pretty sexy once it hits CD==Duration (incidentally, it'd be really nice if it just turned into a sustain at that point, imo -- autouse works well enough but that would involve far less message log spam and autoexplore fiddliness), and the regen's killer for normal (I'm sitting at a passive 125 at level 29, having just beat dreadfell and rolled my face across the ambush). Global penalty's a lot smaller of an issue when you've got good rush-type talents (spinning, rush itself) and you've rustled up enough on-melee slow that all you have to do is hit something to bring them down to your level, ehehe. Was going to try poking tinkers and see how that worked out (tlvl 10 rocket boots...?), but it looks like the escort didn't show this run so eh.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:12 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5743
Yes, it will merge the two gloves sets into a single weapon.

_________________
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:17 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:44 am
Posts: 12
I did notice that prior to fixing the glove slot bug that made the entire inventory disappear, which allowed you to have 3 gloves equipped at the same time, all the damage got merged, as HousePet said (instead of getting 3 separate attacks).

As for assimilate becoming a sustain: I'd actually rather leave it as it is, since sustains can be toggled off by some abilities. Flavour-wise it's meant to be something your character is actively doing in battle and the fact it grows in size allows it to do it indefinitely at some point due to having enough "entities" to handle that while it concentrates on the combat.

As for resistances, it's the kind of thing that needs playtesting to determine how balanced it is, which is where you guys come in to help with feedback. I could make the bleed damage from assimilate/yanks bypass resistances if it turns out to be too easy to mitigate.

I'm very glad that you're enjoying the addon, though, Frumple (although that regen does seem a bit crazier than intended :lol: )! :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:10 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:17 pm
Posts: 1457
Eh, I got some good items for it for how early it is, on top of the base stuff. Trollskin belt (15, no HM), troll-hide armor (6.10, 19% HM), life ring (.9/16), restful amulet (1.3/0). Also brawler, and I went ahead and 5/5'd metabolism because because. 23.3 from kit, another 8 from class stuff. 20 from the race itself. All told my base regen is 55.5, and my HM 217% (I'm actually down to 120.49 at the moment, from switching something or another out). I'm... not entirely sure where the remaining 4 is coming from, though I'm guessing the regen in the racials is based off effective instead of raw mastery, now that I look at it.

If there's anything that's being underestimated so far as racial effects go on that front it's probably the influence of healmod -- the racials themselves are like... maybe two high-end troll-hide egos worth of passive regen with full (20 generics, 1 cat) investment, maybe with an eyal or two thrown in for a healmod boost and some filler regen. Healmod's got a cap (250%), but even well before that it can be pretty impressively impactful, and... however much a full investment racial tree gives. 3%*4 talents*... 6 size cat increases? Assuming that either maxes it out or there isn't a cap. For a +72% increase, which with a base 100% healmod is just a bit shy of half the amount you can get. Which means you're actually getting 34.4 (41.28, if it's effective instead of raw) regen from the racials alone, and tacking a 1.72x modifier on any other source of regen (and any source of healing, of course...). Is pretty good. Less good on higher difficulties, but very very good on normal where it takes some effort to find things that can really outpace the regen alone, nevermind all the other stuff you'll be doing to mitigate damage.

I'm not even really trying to stack regen, though. Or even healing, in particular. Not yet, anyway, ehehe. Next cat point is probably going into vile life, which is going to be delicious for a brawler. It'll end up effectively tacking another ~108 per turn (somewhat less with the global penalty and not-yet-100% crit, somewhat more for the on-death, too) onto my passive-ish healing, ehehe. Just with what I've got, that is. Probably'll end up fitting that last 33% healmod in there somewhere.

For what it's worth, I managed to stack about that much on an end game 'zerker from before the 'zerker rework, back when it was substantially harder to stack up regen. It's a lot less effort to just kinda' casually tap a 100+ regen if you feel like really kitting for it, and that's without that innate 20/24, 72% HM. It's substantially ahead of the curve, but not necessarily truly ridiculous, basically. Nowadays it's a fair bit easier to stack regen into a towering edifice of nope, I'm just not sure how many people bother with it, heh, which may be why it seems a bit crazy. If you do it very often it's impressive, but not really amazing, per se.

E: Though it did just hit me you should totally add some kind of racial effect ala vestments or whatev' to the skin of many. Maybe one of the face helmets too. Not really sure what, though. Maybe some racial mastery or talent specific boost (yank arms really should let you throw the arm at someone for a reduced damage ranged unarmed attack, ferex) or somethin', I'unno.

E2: Day later, but... uh. PES induced con of around 120 gives assimilation's heal effect a... 26 turn duration. The base at 74 con is 16, four more than the duration or cooldown of the talent itself with my current stats/investment. That. Seems a bit off :V

Incidentally, it's kinda' hard to tell if assimilate's heal component is working, sometimes. Does it not attempt to heal if you're already at max health? Most other stuff seems to try to hit you with a heal anyway (or at least vile life's blood splash is nice enough to throw yellow numbers at you, heh). It might be nice to have assimilate do that, too, if only to make it more obvious the talent's fully functioning.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:00 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:44 am
Posts: 12
Frumple wrote:
E2: Day later, but... uh. PES induced con of around 120 gives assimilation's heal effect a... 26 turn duration. The base at 74 con is 16, four more than the duration or cooldown of the talent itself with my current stats/investment. That. Seems a bit off :V

Incidentally, it's kinda' hard to tell if assimilate's heal component is working, sometimes. Does it not attempt to heal if you're already at max health? Most other stuff seems to try to hit you with a heal anyway (or at least vile life's blood splash is nice enough to throw yellow numbers at you, heh). It might be nice to have assimilate do that, too, if only to make it more obvious the talent's fully functioning.


Well, PES wasn't around when I started making this addon, as I took a two year hiatus between then and now. :oops:

I don't see it as a problem though, that it can be used continuously given enough stat investment or the use of a prodigy point (despite it obviously not being the main reason for picking PES, but anyway).

Making Con an attractive stat for spending points is difficult, and I believe right now it's at a point where it competes with other stats. Nerfing it would kind of defeat half the gimmick of the race which is going for Con and size category increases.

As for displaying yellow numbers above the character for the assimilate heals, I'd love to do that if I knew how. :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:06 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:17 pm
Posts: 1457
Eh, I'd mostly just suggest at least syncing the durations... maybe go from a flat talent scale on the heal portion to a mixed talent/con scale and not have the duration of the effects be uncoupled.* Is kinda' odd you've got a talent with the duration of half its effects scaling off talent level and the other half off con, particularly when the scaling ends up with notably different numbers. PES is there, but it's an... intensifier, I guess? Not the cause of the weirdness. 120 con was high in pre-PES days but not really that hard or unusual to get, particularly if you weren't kit boosting for 5/5 thick skin and happened to have some con junk around afterwards. The durations start pulling apart way before that and is what seems off, heh.

As for the yellow text/healing feedback I'd think it'd be possible be able to just crib blood splash's code, since splash is the exact same effect, just as a passive and with an additional trigger on crit. Assuming the code works sensibly, which is a terrible terrible terrible assumption to make :V

... unfortunately a quick look a vile life's code just gives me a mild headache, and I can't really parse what the blazes is going on with assimilate at all (Is... is its healing code actually in three different places or am I badly misinterpreting what's going on?**), so I can't actually say if it is possible to just crib from blood splash, ehehe.

* And... maybe bring the heal's base max down a bit. It tops off with the cat point and 5/5 at 200 per kill, which is quadruple what blood splash's on-kill is (and double if you count the crit, though that happens a lot more often) and it's probably still the weakest portion of assimilate even with that. Something like a talent max of 60-75ish, with fairly mild con scaling? 60 would still be a base 103.2/kill with full racial investment. Con either doubling or, probably better, increasing by ~50% (so 5/5, cat point, 100 con, would give 90/112ish) sounds alright-ish on the face of it.
** Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's bad code or criticizing it or anything -- I have legitimately no idea on that front, and no doubt any attempts by myself would be worse. It just baffles me on a reflexive level :P

E: Alternately, maybe just decouple the assimilate effects entirely. Have 'em be attached to two different talents, instead of one talent giving two effects. Or just make the heal part outright passive, ala blood splash. Probably be a'ight if you cut the heal magnitude down in the process, balance wise.


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