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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.0.1
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:46 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:37 am
Posts: 29
Hopefully you do not get tired of my feedback. Still playing it, same character!
Still have not hit revive so no reports on that.

Pummel throws lua errors at a few times, the only way I am certain and can reproduce is when I am in an ice block (not 100% sun resistant yet) and do a normal attack, I think however it is calculating does not like attacking the iceblock with pummel. I believe I can also get a similar error when I attack someone else who is in an ice block with pummel active. Since all the area of effect attacks count as melee strikes that is one way to massively boost damage is hitting with pummel active, hopefully that stays when you tweak it. Since I still do not have massive damage. No skills like brawler haymaker that is doing 500% base damage before crit multiplier etc. But I have massively higher damage reduction compared to brawler so it is evening out.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.0.1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:06 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
scul wrote:
Hopefully you do not get tired of my feedback. Still playing it, same character!
Still have not hit revive so no reports on that.

Pummel throws lua errors at a few times, the only way I am certain and can reproduce is when I am in an ice block (not 100% sun resistant yet) and do a normal attack, I think however it is calculating does not like attacking the iceblock with pummel. I believe I can also get a similar error when I attack someone else who is in an ice block with pummel active. Since all the area of effect attacks count as melee strikes that is one way to massively boost damage is hitting with pummel active, hopefully that stays when you tweak it. Since I still do not have massive damage. No skills like brawler haymaker that is doing 500% base damage before crit multiplier etc. But I have massively higher damage reduction compared to brawler so it is evening out.


On the contrary, I wish I always got feedback like this :mrgreen:

I'll have to double check Pummel. I... I'm actually kind of surprised it was working at all. I accidentally gave a variable a name that was already being used, so I honestly have no idea how it wasn't causing more errors.

I was about to post an update with the fix for Pummel, a modest rework of Rending (which should pump up your damage a little :wink: ) and a few other tweaks.

I need to investigate this ice block thing, though. So far I haven't run into any errors with Pummel, but, like I said, I have no idea how it was even functioning...

Look for an update soon, and thanks one more for the feedback!


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.0.1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:49 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:37 am
Posts: 29
Well glad to know it is appreciated! On the topic of Pummel, was thinking it seems really odd for it to take time. Given that it only lasts a couple of turns (looks like it maxes at 4 turns, which with things like eye of the tiger existing is probably fair). But it is more of a mindset that you are putting yourself into which should take almost no time. It is set to take weapon attack time so if you have fast gloves etc it is not too long, but it is still basically a turn where you are vulnerable (not moving, and not attacking). Seems like this would flow better if it was instant activate. Especially since you are paying tons of stamina for it and it lasts a very short amount of time (which is fine I think since I use it basically for burst damage, which with pummel and now flexible combat is decent aoe). I would not mind paying more stamina or having a minor drain per turn that it is active, though if it was doing the damage that it is supposed to that might be a bit excessive since it is only supposed to be like two 35% (maxed I think) strikes per strike of yours? which basically makes it temp flexible combat+ since you get on hit effects twice etc. I am not a balancing expert. I just think it would flow better if it was instant and would be willing to pay more for it if you truly think it would be broken if it was.

Just my two cents!

Edit: This is an image from an attack on someone else after I had pummel active while they were in an iceblock in case it helps you at all

http://imgur.com/a/hAQhI

Edit2: I would give even more detailed feedback if I thought it would help people make more fantastic content like this. I have been playing tome since... I was a minor, long before it was even called tome. Pernband days and before. The concept of addons is great. And I might make some of my own if I took the time to work on lua skills. But I am happy to play and give feedback on the work of others for now.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.0.1
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:31 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
I also felt that Pummel was a little lackluster. Making it instant is a good idea. I had already cut the cooldown and slightly increased the duration scaling before you suggested that, but it could use that, too. I've done everything short of increasing the damage, but that's next on the list if still feels lacking. It now has only a 10 turn cooldown, the stamina cost is lower, and the maximum duration is 5 turns. Also, the damage is fixed (meaning considerably lower), and it will no longer throw errors if you attack someone in an Iceblock.

I felt that in order to really fill the 'ranged melee' bill, the class needed to always be able to attack at range, much as an Archer can always use Shoot. To that end, I revamped Render, with the biggest change to Air Render.

Air Render now costs only 3 stamina, the range scales from ~8 to 11, and... it has no cooldown! The damage scaling has been removed (it will do normal attack damage), and rather than pinning a target, it slaps a stacking movement speed debuff on them for 2 turns, up to 4 stacks. If you use Air Render on a target that has at least 2 stacks of the debuff already, then they have a chance to be pinned for 2 turns. (Plus, I fixed the targeting so you can no longer hit past range.)

The higher tier talents in Rending also gain bonuses when striking target's that are afflicted by the debuff:
Earth Render will reduce debuffed targets' armor hardiness by a value that scales on Willpower. Aura Blast and Far Fist will each deal an extra strike that does 1/3 of the initial damage, per stack of the debuff, to any debuffed target hit.

In this way you can stack the debuff up on a single target to more than double the damage of the AoE attacks on them, or spread it around and increase the damage by 1/3 or so on a few targets. With the current mechanic, assuming leather gloves and no other attack speed modifications, you can keep at least one stack on up to three targets. You can keep two targets pinned pretty much forever, if your accuracy is high enough to keep landing the status, by alternating hits between them. I may tweak it to require three stacks in order to pin, maybe tweak the duration or maximum number of stacks, but I want to give it a test the way it is now and see how that plays, first.

Far Fist no longer slows targets. Slow is a good on-hit effect on gloves, and some randart gloves can even have more than 30% slow on hit. The status does not stack, meaning this could potentially be worse than something that can proc on every hit. Also, if you had a lesser on-hit slow, it could over-write the slow from Far Fist. Instead, Far Fist will now Set Up targets, increasing your chance to land a crit against them and reducing all of their saves.

That covers most of it, I think :P

scul wrote:
Edit2: I would give even more detailed feedback if I thought it would help people make more fantastic content like this. I have been playing tome since... I was a minor, long before it was even called tome. Pernband days and before. The concept of addons is great. And I might make some of my own if I took the time to work on lua skills. But I am happy to play and give feedback on the work of others for now.


Thanks again for the kind words :) I think this class shaped up pretty well, but it's nice to hear that someone else feels the same way, especially someone that has been playing ToME for so long. I think it's safe to say that most of the folks making addons are encouraged by feedback, so if you play something you like or have ideas about, let the author know. Also, I highly encourage you to get into addon making, if you have the interest. I have almost zero formal programming education, everything I know of LUA I have learned digging through the source files and other addons, and ToME has a great community of modders who will help you out. In short, if I can do it, pretty much anyone can, so don't be afraid to dive in.

---
v1.1.0
[General]
Changed the particle for Earth Render floor effect.
Added particles to Rending attacks.

[Air Render]
Now has 0 cooldown, costs 3 stamina, and deals 100% damage. Targets hit will be afflicted with Sapped Energy, reducing move speed by X%, for 2 turns, stacking up to 4 times. Target's with at least 2 stacks of the effect will have a chance to be pinned when hit by Air Render.

[Earth Render]
Knockback reduced to 2 tiles.
Targets afflicted by Sapped Energy will also be afflicted with Rent Armor, reducing armor hardiness by X%, to a minimum of 0%, for 2 turns. Effect scales with Willpower.

[Aura Blast]
Scales to a maximum radius of 4. Reduced cooldown.
Targets afflicted by Sapped Energy will also take a second strike, dealing 1/3 the damage of the initial strike for each stack of the effect on the target.

[Far Fist]
Radius now scales to 2. Reduced cooldown.
No longer causes Slow. Now causes Set Up, increasing your chance to land a crit on affected targets, and reducing the target's saves.
Targets afflicted by Sapped Energy will also take a second strike, dealing 1/3 the damage of the initial strike for each stack of the effect on the target.

[Blink Counter]
Now instant use. Increased damage, damage scales, reduced cool down.

[Withering Strike]
Significantly increased damage.

[Pummel]
Now instant use. Reduced cool down to 10. Duration scales up to 5.
Reduced stamina cost. Pummel procs can now crit (it was actually broken before, and they could crit anyway).

[Measured Blows]
Slightly increased crit chance and power, slightly reduced attack speed penalty.

[Lifefont]
Slightly reduced healing on move and heal mod scaling.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:33 pm
Posts: 51
Enjoyed the little I played, but kind of had to uninstall it. Rares/Bosses with White Monk were spamming Air Render, and unless I had 2 wilds, or more than 1 way to clear slow/pin, it was a horrorfest to try to get near them to retaliate.

On the plus side, I developed Empathy as I now know how just how helpless I made Prox and Bill feel.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:22 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
jayseesee wrote:
Enjoyed the little I played, but kind of had to uninstall it. Rares/Bosses with White Monk were spamming Air Render, and unless I had 2 wilds, or more than 1 way to clear slow/pin, it was a horrorfest to try to get near them to retaliate.

On the plus side, I developed Empathy as I now know how just how helpless I made Prox and Bill feel.

I have to say, I think you should give it another shot. A Movement Infusion will boost your movement speed more than enough to counteract the slow, and make you immune to pins (as well as stun/freeze and daze effects), which should give you plenty of opportunity to close distance and trash the mob. Using a movement infusion as soon as a rare (any rare) comes into sight is often not a bad idea, as stuns can be a real killer. You can usually pick up a movement infusion from Last Hope or Angolwen early on, before they start to drop.

That being said, though, I don't particularly like the fact the AI will only use Air Render.

One issue is that every rare+ with Monk White talents will have Air Render, because it's one of the talents that they get at birth. I could change that, so they won't always have it, and it wouldn't affect the player, because they could re-assign the point from whichever talent I change it to. That would mean you might still occasionally run into one that will spam Air Render, but there are ways to deal with it. Spiderkin can be just as bad, regardless of class, between their webs and spydiric poison, so I don't think this is a totally unprecedented challenge in the game.

I can also try playing around with the tactical fields on the talents to see if I can coax the AI into doing something else, but I have a feeling they are always going to give priority to Air Render, due to its low cost and lack of cool down.

There is also the option of flagging Air Render so NPCs won't use it at all. I'll try a combination of the other two options first, but if it's still a problem for a lot of people, that choice is always there as a last resort.

Thanks for the feedback, and I'm glad you enjoyed the bit you played, at least!


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:24 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:37 am
Posts: 29
Me again, still somehow have not died ;-). Level 42. Having lots of fun, like all of the changes, still evaluating different potential tweaks, which as I play a bit more through prides and high peak I will give my opinion (hopefully win the game in roguelike mode). One thing that is a bug/issue is the prodigy Superpower. Something about how you coded gloves using willpower I think is making that extra 30% that is supposed to be added to weapons not show up. It shows up on other random weapons I pick up but gloves are still just 60/60 instead of 90/60. And based on my memory of hitting things before I added the prodigy I am pretty sure damage is the same so it is not being added and just silently adding the damage (at least I do not think so, feel free to tell me I am wrong).

I will report after I have won the game.

Only mob I think I have not been able to kill is Massok, not sure if that is just a bug on his part but he has 43% resist all PLUS 63% absolute resist all, which I did not even think was a thing (that 63% cannot be penetrated with penetration etc) Not sure if that is a talent, but it seems to be up all the time, I only fought him a few rounds and saw I was doing like 20 damage per crit and decided to get out. That was before the changes you made in 1.1 so I will go now and check him out and see if I can make a dent, but that level of resistance is just insane, pretty sure I have killed Atamathon and he did not have nearly that level of resistance.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:36 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
scul wrote:
Me again, still somehow have not died ;-). Level 42. Having lots of fun, like all of the changes, still evaluating different potential tweaks, which as I play a bit more through prides and high peak I will give my opinion (hopefully win the game in roguelike mode). One thing that is a bug/issue is the prodigy Superpower. Something about how you coded gloves using willpower I think is making that extra 30% that is supposed to be added to weapons not show up. It shows up on other random weapons I pick up but gloves are still just 60/60 instead of 90/60. And based on my memory of hitting things before I added the prodigy I am pretty sure damage is the same so it is not being added and just silently adding the damage (at least I do not think so, feel free to tell me I am wrong).

I will report after I have won the game.

Only mob I think I have not been able to kill is Massok, not sure if that is just a bug on his part but he has 43% resist all PLUS 63% absolute resist all, which I did not even think was a thing (that 63% cannot be penetrated with penetration etc) Not sure if that is a talent, but it seems to be up all the time, I only fought him a few rounds and saw I was doing like 20 damage per crit and decided to get out. That was before the changes you made in 1.1 so I will go now and check him out and see if I can make a dent, but that level of resistance is just insane, pretty sure I have killed Atamathon and he did not have nearly that level of resistance.


Thanks for the update! I actually just picked up Superpower myself and noticed it was bugged. Well, more specifically, my code for changing the dam mod is bugged :oops: Sorry about your wasted prodigy... I've thought of at least one way to take care of the problem, but I'm not sure if it will take effect immediately or not. If it works, I'll post a fix. If it doesn't, I'll have to try something else, which might take a while.

I'm playing on Adventure mode, but I haven't died yet, either. I almost died when I decided to open the Room of Death, but I managed to clear it. I did trigger Revive once in the process, and, fortunately, it worked as intended and saved my life.

I cleared all the backup guardians. I do remember Massok taking a while, but he went down. I didn't actually look at his specific resistances, though. Honestly, I don't get to the backup guardians that often, so I'm not sure if the resistance you saw is a bug or normal.

For reference, I'm playing on Normal. I've also cleared everything that has been available to me so far, except for the Flooded Cave and the Shadow Crypt. I'm probably going to skip those, honestly. I'm level 45 already and I've only done one Pride; I kind of just want to blow through the rest and see how High Peak and the final showdown pan out. I have a few tweaks in mind already, but I want to finish up this run first.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 9:36 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
scul wrote:
One thing that is a bug/issue is the prodigy Superpower. Something about how you coded gloves using willpower I think is making that extra 30% that is supposed to be added to weapons not show up. It shows up on other random weapons I pick up but gloves are still just 60/60 instead of 90/60. And based on my memory of hitting things before I added the prodigy I am pretty sure damage is the same so it is not being added and just silently adding the damage (at least I do not think so, feel free to tell me I am wrong).


Fixed. Took a little bit of tweaking, but it turned out to be easier than I anticipated and worked retroactively to correctly apply the bonus from Superpower. New version should also take care of any potential problems with other damage mods, too, such as from Arcane Power.

Hopefully you'll get the update before you head into the end game so your prodigy point didn't go to waste :)


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.0
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:43 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 641
nsrr wrote:
I can also try playing around with the tactical fields on the talents to see if I can coax the AI into doing something else, but I have a feeling they are always going to give priority to Air Render, due to its low cost and lack of cool down.

Have you tried giving it a cooldown when used by not-the-player? I Think you can do that, that might be a good solution. :)


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.1
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:29 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 768
Yeah that'd be my suggestion. Use a player flag check to alter the talent. Perhaps have the slow on the debuff and the associated pin not affect players, or alter the cooldown.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.1
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:58 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Thank you, both, that's a good suggestion. I didn't have any trouble with White Monk rares during my run, but the thought of running into a midge swarm or cat or something else with absurd attack speed and Air Render is a little worrying. I think I will change it so NPCs using it will have a two turn cool down, and probably nerf the effect when it's applied to a player.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.1
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:21 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:37 am
Posts: 29
So, finally died... Level 7 or 8 of high peak, I would have basically meleed final bosses without moving, no question, neither of them would have been able to touch me.

Did not appear that revive triggered at all, not sure if I missed it somehow but I saw no damage refused/damage protection. Was dealing with a high peak boss who had talents from another addon to do massive physical damage which I was somewhat weak to (I mean if you can call like 75% resistance during a fight weak). He one shotted me basically both times (blood of life). But that is not the issue, high peak can be dangerous especially with a few of the addons I had activated (I should have switched to spellhunt remnants to get rid of all his magic, but was feeling tough). In any case I just did not see revive trigger at all besides at 50% so now that I lost my character I will maybe go and cheat (save scumming) to test revive perhaps if you want me to and hopefully can figure out why it did not trigger at all (I know it was not stripped at last turn etc because it was deactivated with all the rest of sustains when I died)

In any case, I really like the addon. I think a more cautious/balanced build without anti magic would be really nice since that would open up more gear and more damage and other forms of resistance (chants etc).

Other random thoughts: somewhere there should be a mid-high level addition to a talent or low level but just scales I think to boost physical penetration/APR. In the middle section 20-41 (prior to second prodigy) there would be things with high resists/high armor and while I have great defense it becomes a bit tedious when you are doing like 50-100 damage to them even with great gloves(tier 5 spell hunt remnants are not the best damage by far but have decent base damage). I can only imagine if someone was not going AM and so had no reason to pump Cun and had a lower crit rate (though the crit shrug of of MANY rares and above was unreasonably high which has nothing to do with your addon) would feel even worse. Either some boost to penetration/APR or some other form of damage, I guess it is not wrong to have to run away from things, though in TOME usually that is never really needed on normal mode in my experience. But with only physical damage and unless you get some really special gloves that have something like acid breath that can mind crit even if you have damage on hit that is going to be pretty low. I know I ran into a number of things in that mid level where I had good gear and decent damage but because of armor at 50 to 100 with 80%+ hardiness combined with decent physical resist just basically sitting there hitting them for 10-20 turns even though they had no chance to really hurt me.

Consider unlocking survival? Mine is the modded one (that will be going into the game coming next update I believe) so with a few escorts I can get some points in it, but as a monk I think one of the basic tenets is that you should have senses that are keen to almost everything around you and you should need very little if anything but your own body to fight, light to no armour, sight beyond what is normal (mystical or otherwise). All senses tuned to be beyond what is normally possible for a human (or whatever race you are :-) ). So I think this captures that feeling a great deal but a few more tweaks I think can make it more monk like.

Obviously take everything besides my talk about revive with a huge grain of salt since it is just my opinion. I know I could definitely see a new generic tree that is unlocked at birth that gives some of the things that the (soon to be) new survival tree gives (done by Razakai I believe, maybe he has tweaked it more for marksman I am not sure, that is next on my list of things to check out). Some kind of trances perhaps, or maybe the first talent is a trance and then the next two talents add passives (see invisible + stealth, chance to block or avoid damage (triggering counter attack possibly), etc) to the trance and the last is some kind of decently big (scales with willpower) that you can break the trance to get a decent non arcane (still usable with AM) damage shield.

These are just random ideas, I know it was weird to be going through the game and not being able to see/sense things without spending a category point. One category point just to be able to see invisible/stealth reliably as a monk who is supposed to depend wholly on their own strength really seems a bit much.

Any ways, sorry for writing so much, I am sure after I try it without going AM I will have some other feedback. As I said somewhere up there, have really enjoyed it even though I did not win! Great job.

Edit: As I think about the trance idea I am liking it more and more, hopefully that part sounds interesting to you.
Edit2: to be clear when I said cheat I meant that I would make a new character and level them up a few levels then go an suicide into something to test revive. I did not use any tactic like that with this character nor for my other wins (not that you asked!)


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.1.1
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:40 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
I'm really sorry that Revive failed you. I've been working on a fix since I read your feedback, and I am as certain as I can be that it will work 100% of the time now. I reworked the Absolute Resolve effect so it now sets the invulnerable temp value on the actor rather than using the incoming damage reduction from Defensive Roll, and I tweaked the callback that triggers the effect a bit. After a few dozen prevented deaths from various damage sources (DoT effects, spells, weapon attacks, area effects, one-hit ko's, all with and without a 'die_at' rating) in testing, I am confident that the rework will work as intended.

I have a few other tweaks I'm working on, mostly reducing cooldowns and slightly increasing costs on some talents, as well as a few tweaks to numbers on some talents. I agree about feeling a little under-powered against some tanky mobs during the mid-game, and I'll see about working some phys-resist penetration and APR into the mix somewhere.

I also need to think about the generic situation, but I'll put out the fix for Revive as soon as I test out the tweaks I had been working on. I agree that Survival should be unlocked at birth. No need for a category point tax there. I may remove it and create a new tree that requires Willpower instead. I don't want to incentivize investment in Cunning too much, as I intended for the class to be fairly flexible in stat choices after Wil and Dex. I like your trance idea, the more I think about it, and I might actually replace Conditioning, too, and create two trance-themed trees, each with it's own trance and bonuses/triggered effects for switching between them. I'll have to give it some thought. No promises, but you've definitely got me thinking!

Thanks again for all of your feedback!


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.2.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:44 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
New version is up, with a thoroughly-tested rework of Revive, and many other small tweaks. Most notably, Earth Render no longer causes the 'jagged terrain' area bleeding effect, however it will attempt to apply two stacks of Sapped Energy to any targets hit, and the cool down has been reduced to 3 turns (from 4). Additionally, Measured Blows will now grant APR and physical resistance penetration while active. Also worth note, Survival has been unlocked at birth and Black Belt has been rearranged so that Reflex is at the end (to make it optional, in case the player wants to try a heavy armor build). Other changes are mostly tweaks to how things scale. A few bonuses that scaled purely on stats will now scale on the stat and the level of the associated talent. I'll put a proper change log in the OP when I have more time. I was having network trouble and it took about an hour to upload the new version, which is about an hour longer than it should have taken xD


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