ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:43 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 248
I decided, on a whim, to start up a Firmamancer. And so I did. I've mostly been enjoying myself so far: Firmamancers are fairly fun, especially compared to the anorithils they're closely related to, and are generally at a good power level.

Feedback/Comments:

-Basically the first thing I noticed when I first looked at the class was how starved they were for a bread and butter talent. Firmamancer spells all have huge cooldowns: The lowest cooldown for a spell I saw was six. This makes things annoying in general, but especially in the early levels. Early fights basically consisted of Downpour->Hide behind a corner for six turns->Downpour. Things got less aggravating when I added in Stargaze to the mix, but that only helped against trash enemies that I could probably melee to death.
-The Firmamancer generator attack trees[Sunlight/Firmament/Rainfall] are all pretty solid. They all have a nicely blended mix of damage, utility and aoe that vanilla trees should envy[Not for sheer power, but rather for how well they mesh together].
-Rainfall was the tree I invested the most in and thus the one with the most detailed comments. I'll go through them talent by talent:
-Downpour is a nice simple attack which makes up for medium range with a medium area of effect. If it weren't for its astoundingly high cooldown[7], it would probably be the equivalent of Moonlight Ray[3] or Slime Spit[4] for this class. Honestly, setting its cooldown to four would solve the vast majority of my problems with this class.
-Drench is a perfectly good ability that I set to autouse on adjacent enemy and then promptly forgot about. My only issue with it is that its somewhat vague about which resistances it reduces.
-Floodgate is a truly excellent talent. Like literally every other talent, its cooldown is too high, but its spectacular in every other way. Better damage then Downpour, an immense aoe that can hit enemies up to 10 spaces away and a solid knockback effect[Since keeping enemies far away is very important for this class]
-Open the Heavens is probably the worst talent of the four. Not because it isn't effective: It essentially fills up your entire negative energy bar and does decent damage in a very large aoe at a good range. But because its inconvenient to use most of the time. It has a range of seven squares and a maximum aoe of six squares. This is a big problem, since it means its very difficult to avoid hitting yourself with it. It also has a ruinously high cooldown[38], albeit one that's probably well-deserved, since it completely fills up your negative energy bar.

-Firmament is the other tree I used, although I only put two points in it. Its main problem is that there's no other category that does darkness damage and the cooldowns on its spells are simply too high to use them for the majority of your damage. Firmament is a great tree that I wish I could justify using.

-And now, into the meat of the other big problem with Firmanancers: Negative energy management. Its interesting that Firmamancers have no abilities with negative energy gain and must rely on the passives on their "Crescendo" categories to gain negative energy. Its also neat that they have to combo their way into their really big abilities. The problem is that none of this interacts very well.
-The most obvious problem is this: Your big flashy abilities cost a large percentage of your maximum negative energy, which scales with level. But you can only get negative energy in relatively small flat amounts. This isn't so bad early on when your finishers cost only about thirty negative energy and you can generate an average of 6 negative energy per turn. But by level twenty or so, when your finishers cost sixty negative energy and you can generate an average of 10 negative energy per turn, this becomes silly. Things promise to become even worse late game.
-Even worse, you start getting access to other, more reasonably priced abilities that also cost negative energy. Reckoning does maybe two thirds the damage of a similarly levelled Genesis, but for a much lesser price and to a larger area of effect. Considering that your advanced talent categories and your best escape talent both also require negative energy, burning your entire resource pool for an attack only somewhat more effective then your ordinary talents becomes dubious.
-Of course, Open the Heavens turns everything on its head by giving you a full refill without needing an enemy nearby. With Hymn Nocturnalist's negative energy regeneration, you can start every fight with a full bar, drop a finisher and then use Open the Heavens to fill your negative energy up again. This is actually pretty okay since Open the Heavens has a really long cooldown. Hymn Nocturnalist also has the disadvantage of sabotaging your negative energy pool if any enemies are within 5 squares, so I don't think its interaction with the other talents is too overpowering considering this downside.
-This dynamic would be changed a little bit when Open the Heavens becomes too weak to fill 90% of your negative energy bar[If you ever reach that point]. You'd still be able to prep a full bar out of combat, but you'd basically be limited to using only your "normal" negative energy talents for the rest of the fight after refilling with Open the Heavens.
-And of course you'd be basically barred from using anything related to negative energy against an enemy with antimagic, but that's not a problem exclusive to Firmamancers at all.

-Firmamancers also have a pretty pointless positive energy game. They only have two talents that consume it and both of them are in the Firmament tree. It basically has no effect on gameplay, in contrast to the tangled web that is negative energy. Then again, that's basically how anorithils work in vanilla...

-Back to giving specific feedback on talent categories. I chose Heavens as my secondary damage category, so its the only one I can give good feedback on.
-Genesis gives the most useful negative energy restoration ability and also the second weakest in magnitude. This is probably my favorite part of the negative energy generation mechanic for this class. If you just go about your business spamming spells, then you get enough energy to tide you over, but only in a trickle. If you run out of energy and have to retreat, you get a big enough fund of energy to potentially save you. And if all your spells are on cooldown[A state which is sadly quite frequent for Firmamancers], you can always spent an otherwise wasted turn netting a good deal of energy. The finisher for Genesis suffers from the scaling issues detailed above, but is otherwise good. The animation implies that it works as a beam[It doesn't] and the talent doesn't tell you the daze change, which is annoying, but those are small UI issues. The cooldown of 6 is actually reasonable for an attack this resource-limited.
-Revelations gives two fairly useful effects, but I just didn't end up using it that often. I usually reserved my negative energy for attacks/escaping and its duration is fairly small compared to Track/Barrier. I'd probably have used it more often if I hadn't found a thief escort and the Rune of Refleciton early.
-If Downpour ended up being my bread and butter, Reckoning became my turkey roast. It has pretty good damage, better range then most of your talents and a reasonable negative energy cost and cooldown. It also has an insultingly tiny chance to daze[13% at max level?] that seems more like a bug then anything else
-Blinding Presence is, sadly, pretty bad. Its pseudo-Thunderstorm proc happens rarely and the blind effect has a vanishingly small chance of proccing[3% at first level]. The stealth effect is worse then useless, since all stealth does is obscure your screen for no benefit. It having a negative negative energy cost[You know what I mean] is yet another downside, since it just makes your finishers more expensive. I put no points here.

-I invested pretty lightly into Gale, since I didn't plan on stacking physical damage.
-Dynamo is pretty useful for getting enough negative energy to outpace enemies in a footrace and can give you a sizable burst with the help of a movement infusion. I never used the finisher past the starting dungeon, but it seems okay. Less damage and range then Genesis' finisher, but in an aoe.
-Death-Dealing Journey is a really good escape talent at one point. The damage also looks pretty nice, which I think makes it a nice tradeoff: Use it for high damage or for a fairly reliable escape.
-Hurricane's Opened Eye doesn't seem good to me, but I generally tend to underestimate damage over time abilities. I never used it once.
-Scarlet Wind would have been a great ability on any other class. The passive damage is actually pretty sizable, especially combined with all the other sources of passive damage the class has. Unfortunately it requires enemies to get close, which means that Hymn Nocturnalist will make you start hemorrhaging negative energy, which is no good. The global speed boost is pretty decent... except that this class spends a lot of turns waiting for its talents to come off cooldown, so its not very good.

-Forecast is generally a pretty overtuned category. I shudder to think of how silly an adventurer with this category could be...
-Words are, as you described them, Chant-alikes. Words of the Sun and Words of the Storm are fairly balanced, nothing to see here. Words of the Wind, however, is not. It gives a small but noticeable boost to your physical defense, but also gives you a boost to the god-stat: Spell CD reduction. On literally any other magical class, that last would have been broken beyond all measure. On this class, it just moves the cooldowns from "I guess I'll just go Antimagic and bump attack people" to "I'll just try to end fights before I use up all my talents". All of my complaints about spell cooldowns are from a game playing with Words of Wind maxed and on 24/7.
-Forecast Prophet, unusually, is somewhat weak. The retaliation damage is nice early on and fast movement never hurts, but I'd never invest more then one point into it.
-Forecast Seer is really really good. The critical chance bonus is significant and the effects for deactivating the Forecasts are solid. Notably, Words of the Storm REDUCES COOLDOWNS, which will probably be crucial in making this class last in long fights. I haven't invested much into this, but mostly because I haven't had the points to spare.
-Forecast Oracle has insanely high numbers and that's about it. It gives a whopping 34% bonus to lightning and physical damage with five points invested[Maybe even more later on, since it scales with spellpower]. This is a LOT, especially if you add on one of the advanced category capstones. Dealing over a hundred points of damage whenever anyone dares ranged attack you is just icing in comparison.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
Posts: 195
I hear secondhand, via in-game chat, that Radiant's Second Sun's beams extend infinitely. As in, if you have 7 range on your beam and cast it at someone 9 range away, Second Sun will still hit it. If you've got 7 range, and Track, and an unobstructed enemy 30 range away.... it'll hit them as well.

While an infinite range Horizon Breaker Triple Danmaku Aftershock attack is inarguably awesome, I think some balancing and bugfixing should probably be in order.

In the meantime I'm going to go abuse my new blight sniper rifle before it gets nerfed, kthxbai

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:22 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 703
Thank you SO much for the in-depth comments! :D This is gonna be super helpful when I get back to coding.

...still no clue when that'll be, though...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:28 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:43 pm
Posts: 355
Well I've got a mod that seems related to a superload from celestial oddities
Quote:
Lua Error: /mod/addons/celestialoddities/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:68: attempt to call method 'knowTalent' (a nil value)
At [C]:-1 knowTalent
At /mod/addons/celestialoddities/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:68 on_set_temporary_effect
At .../addons/improved-restauto/superload/mod/class/Player.lua:467 check
At /engine/interface/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:118 base_setEffect
At /mod/addons/neka_qol07/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:46 setEffect
At /data-cults/general/events/digestive-sack.lua:140 fct
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:153 fct
At /engine/ui/Button.lua:65
At /engine/KeyBind.lua:230 receiveKey
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:773 keyEvent
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:487

This happened when opening a sack in the cults dlc at the Maggot area


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:57 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 703
yeah, I know what I did wrong there, oof. will add a note for future updates, assuming I ever code again.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
Posts: 195
astralInferno wrote:
yeah, I know what I did wrong there, oof. will add a note for future updates, assuming I ever code again.


For what it's worth, I at least hope you do come back to coding sometime.... Inferno Race Pack and Celestial Oddities are two of my favorite mods by far.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:55 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 703
:D
I can't make any promises; who knows where my muse will take me, but knowing people appreciate it makes it much more likely.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:53 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:03 am
Posts: 23
Interestingly, I ended up getting the same general bug that Hellcommander did:
Quote:
Lua Error: /mod/addons/celestialoddities/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:68: attempt to call method 'knowTalent' (a nil value)
At [C]:-1 knowTalent
At /mod/addons/celestialoddities/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:68 on_set_temporary_effect
At /mod/class/Player.lua:741 check
At /engine/interfae/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:118 setEffect
At /data-cults/general/events/digestive-sack.lua:140 fct
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:153 fct
At /engine/ui/Button.lua:65
At /engine/KeyBind.lua:230 receiveKey
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:773 keyEvent
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:487


Except I don't have that recuso addon, whatever that is. I mostly have class/race ones along with some general QoL stuff for Embers/Ashes/Cults.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:03 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:41 am
Posts: 6
problems with random encounters.

##Use Talent Lua Error## T_HYMN_OF_SHADOWS Actor: 81509 Imrinbahie the shalore
Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:322: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:295: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:192: /data-firmamancer/talents/celestial/basehymn.lua:23: attempt to call field 'getDamageOnMeleeHit' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
/data-firmamancer/talents/celestial/basehymn.lua:23: in function </data-firmamancer/talents/celestial/basehymn.lua:20>
[C]: in function 'xpcall'
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:191: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:180>
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 error
At /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:322 useTalent
At /mod/resolvers.lua:605 check
At /engine/Zone.lua:723 addEntity
At /mod/class/generator/actor/Random.lua:53 generateOne
At /engine/generator/actor/Random.lua:127 regenFrom
At /engine/generator/actor/Random.lua:49 generate
At /engine/Zone.lua:1054 newLevel
At /engine/Zone.lua:919 getLevel
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1043 changeLevelReal
At /mod/addons/cults/superload/mod/class/Game.lua:45 changeLevelReal
At /mod/class/Game.lua:918 changeLevel
At /mod/class/GameState.lua:879
At /engine/Game.lua:322 onTickEndExecute
At /engine/Game.lua:313 tick
At /engine/GameEnergyBased.lua:60 tick
At /engine/GameTurnBased.lua:51 tick
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1489 base_tick
At /mod/addons/turn_separators_v2/superload/mod/class/Game.lua:45 base_tick
At ...ons/improved_combat_text_v2/superload/mod/class/Game.lua:61
---------------- Stack Dump ----------------
--------------- Stack Dump Finished ---------------


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:13 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:41 am
Posts: 6
also due to trying to remove the solo addon i get a different error if i dont start from scratch on a new charachter with the firmamancer solo addon.

[NPC:addedToLevel] Elelranne the bandit lord 7734 wearing thick cashmere cloak of the Shaloren
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_take_damage
Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:449: Learning unknown talent: T_INFERNO_DOWNPOUR
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 assert
At /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:449 learnTalent
At /mod/class/Actor.lua:4314 learnTalent
At /mod/addons/orcs/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:158 learnTalent
At /mod/class/GameState.lua:2217 old_on_added_to_level
At /mod/resolvers.lua:718 check
At /mod/class/Actor.lua:6703 check
At /engine/Zone.lua:722 addEntity
At /engine/generator/actor/Random.lua:95 generateGuardian
At /engine/generator/actor/Random.lua:55 generate
At /engine/Zone.lua:1054 newLevel
At /engine/Zone.lua:919 getLevel
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1119 changeLevelReal
At /mod/addons/cults/superload/mod/class/Game.lua:45 changeLevelReal
At /mod/class/Game.lua:910 unload
At /engine/Game.lua:430 unregisterDialog
At /mod/dialogs/ShowEquipInven.lua:179
At /engine/KeyBind.lua:264 triggerVirtual
At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:483 fct
At /engine/Mouse.lua:58
FROM /mod/addons/cults/superload/engine/dialogs/ShowErrorStack.lua loading previous!
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 103.49119455126 116.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 96.147892919337 116.7
fight: stralite dagger stralite dagger :: nil MAINHAND
fight: stralite dagger stralite dagger :: nil OFFHAND
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 100.48892585876 116.7
fight: reinforced leather armour stralite dagger :: nil BODY
fight: reinforced leather armour stralite dagger :: nil BODY
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Ego 72.933250224569 75.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 26.422349398208 45.7
Loading tile from tileset /data/gfx/shockbolt/npc/humanoid_human_bandit.png
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_act_base
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 79.393468022344 116.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 35.321600869196 45.7
fight: chilling dwarven-steel dagger of massacre dwarven-steel dagger :: nil MAINHAND
fight: chilling dwarven-steel dagger of massacre dwarven-steel dagger :: nil OFFHAND
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 23.085052841687 45.7
fight: cleansing hardened leather armour of acid resistance dwarven-steel dagger :: nil BODY
fight: cleansing hardened leather armour of acid resistance chilling dwarven-steel dagger of massacre :: nil BODY
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 17.791732361449 45.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 76.808863023015 116.7
Loading tile from tileset /data/gfx/shockbolt/npc/humanoid_human_bandit.png
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_act_base
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 29.866002251011 45.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 85.051364704775 116.7
fight: dwarven-steel dagger arcing dwarven-steel dagger of massacre :: nil MAINHAND
fight: dwarven-steel dagger arcing dwarven-steel dagger of massacre :: nil OFFHAND
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 102.03023366294 116.7
fight: reinforced leather armour arcing dwarven-steel dagger of massacre :: nil BODY
fight: reinforced leather armour dwarven-steel dagger :: nil BODY
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 107.67316233598 116.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 34.712955701262 45.7
Loading tile from tileset /data/gfx/shockbolt/npc/humanoid_human_thief.png
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_act_base
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_melee_attack
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_archery_attack
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Greater 4.2813474058919 10.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 27.548608831763 45.7
fight: balanced stralite dagger of erosion plaguebringer's stralite dagger :: nil MAINHAND
fight: balanced stralite dagger of erosion plaguebringer's stralite dagger :: nil OFFHAND
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 14.50341710936 45.7
fight: cleansing reinforced leather armour of stability plaguebringer's stralite dagger :: nil BODY
fight: cleansing reinforced leather armour of stability balanced stralite dagger of erosion :: nil BODY
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Greater 1.9227602043113 10.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 43.019420853112 45.7
Loading tile from tileset /data/gfx/shockbolt/npc/humanoid_human_thief.png
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_act_base
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_melee_attack
[CALLBACK] upgrading to prioritized talents_on_archery_attack
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Greater 10.225905607945 10.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 110.74331442562 116.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 109.9178626785 116.7
fight: dwarven-steel dagger stralite dagger :: nil MAINHAND
fight: dwarven-steel dagger stralite dagger :: nil OFFHAND
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected Double Ego 26.602437123805 45.7
fight: prismatic reinforced leather armour of stability stralite dagger :: nil BODY
fight: prismatic reinforced leather armour of stability dwarven-steel dagger :: nil BODY
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 110.87529785598 116.7
[TOME ENTITY FILTER] selected basic 115.38527482272 116.7
Loading tile from tileset /data/gfx/shockbolt/npc/humanoid_human_rogue


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:59 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5952
No really. Do not remove an addon from a save file and expect it to not brick the save.
I don't just say that to get people starting new characters...

_________________
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:43 am 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:41 am
Posts: 6
it bricked the save before i could remove the addon and the addon isnt able to be removed afterwards anyway. disabling the addon only affects new games. updates often will patch things in process. but the addon was moved into the complilation and not updated and this was not noted in steam so i downloaded and started game before realizing i was wasting my time trying to play because of an addon im not even using interacting with the random script generators.


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