ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:07 am 
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Higher

Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:54 am
Posts: 74
Another report:

"Eelkas' strategy dialogue is working now, however it pops up every time an area is exited."

(or is that normal?)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:24 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:50 pm
Posts: 502
@Patashu
Drakelings will bother you about it until you suggest a new style or tell them to keep using the current one.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:34 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 169
Location: Eyal
Burrowing is kind of weird. You can burrow into vaults, through Fortress walls, ect. (No trees sadly). You can use it to do use the Sher'Tul Fortress Training Facilities without paying energy, or to just walk into locked vaults.

Edit: Also, I randomly got Summon Sickness after I died in Tannen's Tower. And without soul talents and regen, I would be doomed (if I wasn't in Explore mode). (This doesn't normally happen either BTW)

Edit: I FINALLY FINISHED ALL THREE PRODIGIES! You can find the list of all special effects two posts down.


Last edited by Kamani on Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:58 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:50 pm
Posts: 502
@Kamani
Excellent-- I was always certain there would be silly ways to abuse "Burrowing"! I knew about most of these things, but never touched them because the whole tree would become entirely useless if you were inside of a "protected" area (such as the Sher'Tul Fortress, or a vault). I have a solution in mind-- The talents won't be affected if you're already inside of a vault-- But then the Sher'Tul Fortress would still have a problem.

Alas, there is no "easy" answer for this-- But I am still interested in hearing all the ways you can break the game through using it :lol:


-- Also, in regards to your edit: Tannen's Tower DEFINITELY has some problems related to dying... I am quite aware of them, but still deciding on how to elegantly fix them. Particularly, you lose the "Blighted" effect when you die (there is no way to prevent the game from removing effects when you die), meaning you lose your Summon Uplink-- And thus, you get sickness. I have been trying to investigate how to make an effect "automatically" apply to the character in certain situations-- But I haven't found an "elegant" way that wouldn't just lead to bogging down the game/CPU with repeated running.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:12 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 169
Location: Eyal
Removed. Extremely sorry about that. I thought I had posted it in the spoilers page. Entirely unintentional. :oops: Sorry.


Last edited by Kamani on Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:31 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:50 pm
Posts: 502
@Kamani
Edit: ty ty! I appreciate it!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:53 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 169
Location: Eyal
Sorry about that. I posted it there, and then, when I asked a question here, I thought I was on the spoilers forum, and I didn't see it, so I thought I had missed the Submit button, so I reposted it. But I was here instead. Sorry. :oops:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:47 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 169
Location: Eyal
Oh, on the Sher'Tul fortress, burrowing only lets you use the training dummy without paying, so it isn't deeply important. It is fun to use it to escape and run through walls though. And burrowing through vaults had it's disadvantages. (I.E. digging into a vault by accident instead of somewhere safe when you are running away. (I did that before I learned I could burrow into vaults and ended up very dead)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:37 am 
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Yeek

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:33 pm
Posts: 11
To keep the topic alive, there is something that, while it isn't a bug, I should mention here. Mitotic mindstars have the ability of 'split' if you use them, into two mindstars, but for that happen, you need to equip them and..have a free hand.

The hydra doesn't have free hands, even if they have 15 free heads while equipping the mitotic mindstar.
Could somebody give me a hand on this problem? :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:06 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:50 pm
Posts: 502
@sadisticnerd
That is a VERY messy... "thing" with the ToME engine, and I kinda chose to stay out of that... :lol:
To point out some issues:
- Where would "schismed" mindstars go (head-wise)?
- With other mindstars (the ones that "synchronize" with other ones), which would it choose to link with?
- What happens when two linked mindstars link with another two mindstars?


... Basically, I decided not to touch these issues, so mindstars simply won't work when used with "multi-headed" beasts... (although, I have heard reports before about Mindstars mechanics actually WORKING on Hydra...)

PS: Technically speaking, "Mindstars" are a "gift" from nature, and "children" aren't able to utilize them correctly. That's why none of the avatars have "Mindstar Mastery" as a category-- Despite being classes designed to use them.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:44 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:28 am
Posts: 169
Location: Eyal
Mindstar Mastery would probably be kind of insane on hydra.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:52 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
I haven't had a lot of ToME time lately, but I put in a little more time on Ritch the last couple of days. I noticed a couple of bugs that I had missed before.

The power displayed for your hookclaw and stinger attacks on the character sheet doesn't seem to be right. Stinger uses different damage modifiers than hookclaws, but all of the numbers are the same. Or perhaps what's displayed are the un-modified numbers? In any case, the values here are not particularly useful as the don't seem to reflect the amount of damage you will actually do. Also, it would be nice if the attack tab displayed the power of your impermanent weapons, if you have any equipped.

Strong Arm doesn't seem to be dealing the proper amount of bleeding damage when used without weapons. With the talent at level 5, it should be doing something like 94 damage over 5 turns after one bump attack (pretty sure you said it is supposed to stack for each attack, and a Ritch bump hits twice), or about 20 damage per tick. Instead, it seems to only be doing about 1.5 damage per tick after one bump.

Unless maybe the initial bleed hit is being reduced by Armor? I just thought of that, actually. I should probably test that out. The numbers would make more sense in that case, as when I noticed this I had something like 85% hardiness and a boat-load of armor from Nature Hardened.

Shield Breaker is quite useful for getting yourself out of an Iceblock... unless you used a shielding torque before you were frozen. It would be nice if it prioritized Iceblocks over shield effects. Also, it doesn't seem to do anything to shield effects used by Mindslayer mobs, but I think this has to do with the fact that they are technically 'sustains' and not 'effects'? I'm guessing that's just the way that the damage-shield breaking effect normally works, and therefore probably not a bug. I wasn't sure though, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to mention.

On this last run I ignored The Summoner until after finishing all of the tier 2 dungeons, and I didn't get any points in either Summoner's Bond or Summoner's Disparity when I did go and talk to him. I'm pretty sure that when I only ignored him until after the tier 1's I got one level in Disparity, so this seemed odd by comparison.

Some more observations on the class:

I raved about Flutter before, but I'm not so sure it's worthwhile, now. Investing generics into NC talents seems to be a much better use of the points. Keeping Rabbit's Foot maxed gives you enough defense to avoid most hits from most enemies, plus you get the passive benefits of more life, more regen, and more wild power. In fact, investing in any of the Ritch's own generics (or Mantis or Hoarding) feels like a waste of points when compared to investing in NC. Blood Heat is maybe worth a few points, but I'm not even sure about that. Trash mobs pose no threat whatsoever, while rares can often do so much damage that the life leech is not nearly enough to keep you up, and Hungry Eyes (first disciplined) is better in those situations, anyway.

Pins are a killer. Rare spiderkins with ranged attacks turn a dungeon into a dead end. With their 'Web' ability they can keep you perma-pinned, and their ain't a darn thing you can do about it. Flamespit is too weak to deal with them from range, especially if they have any kind of healing. Cut Loose will free you from the pin, but they will most likely pin you again before you can kill them (Web only has a 3 turn cooldown), and then you are Confused on top of it. I can see this being a huge problem for the Melee Avatars, unless they have some better way to deal with pins.

Still looking forward to updates, especially to the Reflections quests and the eventual addition of the Melee Avatars. Hope you haven't been discouraged by the lack of feedback lately. If it's any consolation, the amount you're getting now is what I would call 'normal' for most addons, while the flurry of activity after release was way, way above average. Cheers!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:53 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:50 pm
Posts: 502
@nsrr
Wow, I really appreciate the commitment nsrr! I'm surprised you're still invested even after all this silence!

Don't you worry-- Like I said, I'm not gone. Don't you dare think that for even a single moment. I am VERY here-- Just... "Indisposed" at the moment-- So "active" development kinda went on hold for a while. Also-- I am definitely NOT discouraged... I have no reason to be-- This entire project is very close to my heart, and whether I do or don't get input, it will always be on my mind.


... But anyways-- Enough of that mushy stuff. Let's talk about bloody stuff-- And insects.


RE: Power of "Impermanent" weapons, "Hookclaws" and "Stingers"
... This is tricky, but doable. I could display the Impermanent weapon's damage in the character sheet... However, the nature of "Stinger" damage calculations makes it hard to describe precisely how powerful it will be, simply put. As for "Hookclaw" damage, I originally intended this to reflect "unarmed" damage, but maybe it should describe "armed" damage too, huh?
"Natural Attacks" are a "messy" mutation of ToME's "weapon combat" system, so it will be something I "optimize" over time... There's no way I'll get it quite right the first time. Heck, it was only recently I figured out precisely how "Accuracy" affects combat, thanks to jenx!

RE: Strongarm bleeding
Note that it is INFLICTING physical damage upon you-- So you can actually reduce Strongarm's bleeding damage by acquiring Physical Resistance. "All Resistance" also affects this, and various other forms of damage reduction. As you said-- Armor might even be reducing it (Armor's interaction with Physical damage has always confused me), so I'll definitely need to double check this though-- I've made a note of it for the next update.

RE: Why the heck does Shield Breaker prioritize damage shields?!
... This was actually a "word sandwich" problem, hahaha... Think of it like this:
- Scenario #1: It breaks shields, THEN iceblocks-- You would ONLY use this on enemies, because it would break their shield, rather than freeing them from the ice
- Scenario #2: If breaks iceblocks, THEN shields-- You would ONLY ever use it on yourself, because it would free you from ice WITHOUT disrupting your shield
- Scenario #3: It breaks iceblocks if used on allies, but breaks shields if used on enemies-- Now I have to muddle the talent's description text EVEN FURTHER to describe precisely how this works
... Ultimately, I decided to just leave it as Scenario #1 for simplicity (and the logical reason that a "shield" would cover the ice as well-- So naturally, you'd have to cut the shield first).
This definitely bugged me for a long time, and I'm still not sure of an "elegant" way to revise this talent, heh...

RE: Okay, so why doesn't "Shield Breaker" break Psionic shield sustains?!
... Why indeed? Noted for next update.

RE: Ignoring The Summoner leads to "less" bonuses
The way it works is like this:
- You get "4" opportunities to speak to the summoner
- Getting "Bond" simply requires you to take any opportunities
- Getting "Disparity" requires you to ignore 1 opportunity, then take the next opportunity
- Because "Disparity" is only available HALF as frequently, it has TWICE the potency of "Bond"
*** FATAL FLAW: What if you miss 3 opportunities before getting 1 Disparity...? YOU LOSE OUT ON 1 Disparity or 2 Bonds-- BAAAD!!
This was intentional design-- But honestly: It's BAD design. Nobody (ESPECIALLY Roguelike players) likes to miss out on permanent bonuses. It's something I need to correct-- But after some thought, I also realized it was a good opportunity to put something "special" in if you miss enough opportunities... Although, I haven't quite decided what it would be yet... So... Well... Here we are, eheheh... Heh.

RE: Ritch generics pale in comparison to Natural Combat generics
... And to make matters worse, Ritch is a VERY generics-hungry class too!
That said, I always wanted "Natural Combat ONLY" builds to be completely viable-- But if we use "Natural Combat" as a metric for exactly "what is viable"-- This basically means Ritch generics are not really "good" enough!
Looking back, the "nature" of these underwhelming generics might have corresponded to me being convinced that Ritch was going to be overpowered and needed more "flavor" to keep all the killing interesting.
Long story short: I might need to make a major revision to the class in the future... Even *I* don't feel like many of the Ritch's generics are very good (ESPECIALLY Mantis Ego... It's honestly terrible!)

RE: "Pins are killer"
"Pin Immunity" has always been something I never had trouble finding-- But anyways, hindsight, 20/20, etc...
It would be pretty neat if "Buzz-Off" or "Flutter" broke pins (I DID want "Flutter" to grant pin immunity-- But I felt it would be stepping on "Low Flight's" toes too much-- It already gives a BETTER defense boost with NO "stun" penalty).
Also, here's an interesting factoid about my development process: There was a time that the activated effect of "Elusiveness" was going to be breaking stuns/pins by injuring yourself (much like how an animal might gnaw off a limb in order to escape from a trap). With this in mind, maybe I could give "Elusiveness" the secondary effect of breaking pins as well...? Hmmm...


PS: I'm still QUITE concerned about the difficulty of the Ritch class... Is it still awful and difficult at the moment...? I still can't believe how hard it turned out being... Especially since it was intended to be the "easy mode" class!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:43 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 485
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Heh, I still think this is a fantastic piece of work, and I definitely haven't lost interest in it. I've just been lacking on free time. Plus, I get distracted by ideas for revisions to my own stuff, and new things that I want to work on, and things I want to test out for other people.... Plus, I still like to play good old fashioned ToME every now and then :lol:

My strategy on the last few runs has been basically a 'Natural Combat only' build. This means that hookclaw attacks quickly out pace impermanent weapons, since I'm not investing in Cutting Edge (or is it Killing Blade? I always forget which one is category when I'm not looking, lol). That means that I'm always bleeding, and therefore always stealing life. Plus I do tons of damage from investing in Savage Strength. Between that, the defense from Rabbit's Foot, and Armor from Nature Hardened, I'm dang near invincible to mobs that rely on weapon attacks.

I kind of figured it was something along those lines for Shield Breaker. It's not that big of a problem. It caught me a little off guard the first time, but now I just hold off on using torques if I'm up against something that might freeze me.

Thanks for the run down on Bond and Disparity, I'll remember that in the future.

I think most of the 'difficulty' of Ritch comes from the inclination to invest in the Ritch's unique categories. That takes a lot of generic investment, and not investing those points into NC really leaves you a lot worse off. Bloodletting, Hoarding and Wing Pod would all be useful defensive investments, but again, not really worthwhile when compared to investing in NC. Cutting Edge takes a lot of investment to stay relevant and isn't worthwhile, especially when keeping Savage Strength maxed is enough for your hookclaws to kill most things in a bump or two. Mantis is awful, as you said, and Cold Blood doesn't really do much defensively or offensively, even if it weren't opposed to Natural Combat investment.

Would you be up for (experimentally) swapping a couple of the class and generic talents? I would switch Bloodletting and Wing Pod for Metal Rending and Victimize. Metal Rending and Victimize each have a couple of really good talents, possibly even worth giving up a few points in NC. I might just go ahead and do that on my own copy, actually, to see how it goes. I don't think it would solve all of Ritch's problems, but it might be a start. Ultimately, of course, all I can do is offer my experience and some suggestions. I think you may be right that the class will need some major revision in the future. I want it to be good, but when the best build option seems to be largely ignoring the class's unique talents and just bump stuff, that's a pretty good indication that something is seriously lacking. Ritch sort of feels like an Archer that can only use Shoot, or a Rogue with no Stealth.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:46 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:09 am
Posts: 37
I actually just finished my 're-baselining' run--I was realizing how long it'd been since I'd played a fairly normal game of ToME, so I played through with a Wyrmic. First win as a Wyrmic, even! So now I think I better remember what playing something other than a monster feels like, which should help any feedback I give in the future. :D

My brother was struggling with a Fire Drake recently, though--apparently he just couldn't manage to kill some Luminous Horrors to get through the Sher'Tul ruins. Something about them being already hard to kill and then having 100% fire resistance. No clue what his build was like, though.


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