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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:16 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
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Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
So, bit of a conundrum: on the one hand, I'm generally disinclined to play roguelike mode (because some of the crap I've seen the game pull is just ridiculous), but on the other hand, if I die in the early game, I have a strong tendency to just scrap the character and start over (because @#$% that noise). My ideal, I think, would be something akin to roguelike mode in the early game and adventure mode in the late game.

Now, I think this is feasible, and I'm working on an addon to add a "Semi-Roguelike mode" descriptor, but I'd like to get some feedback on a couple points:
  • When to add lives: I could just shift all of adventure mode's new-life levels up some, but I think "late game" is more tied to how far you've gotten, and that will happen at different levels for Yeeks versus Ghouls. My thought is to give extra lives at various events in the late game — say, going to the east, making the portal back to the west, making the portal back to the east, and the four orc prides. (I think that works out to the same number of extra lives as adventure mode.)
  • Achievements: The implementation strategy I'm working on would, if I'm following the code correctly, have the side effect that achievements gained before you get any extra lives would register as roguelike-mode achievements and achievements gained after you get extra lives would register as adventure-mode achievements. Is this considered acceptable? I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to add an entire new set of semi-roguelike-mode achievements (not to mention that it would bloat the already huge number of achievements…).

So. Thoughts?

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Last edited by Zizzo on Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:08 pm 
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Yeek

Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:46 am
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Play Roguelike mode, make a small addon that makes the Master always drop The Blood of Life.

Or just make a habit of taking Cauterize, really, no addon necessary. It's almost as good and you can do it "guilt"-free.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:27 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
Kiralio wrote:
Play Roguelike mode, make a small addon that makes the Master always drop The Blood of Life.

...which (a) wouldn't help undead characters, and (b) would only confer the one extra life. [Not to mention violating the principle of multiple levels of protection.]

Kiralio wrote:
Or just make a habit of taking Cauterize, really, no addon necessary.

...which (a) wouldn't help non-spellcasting characters, and (b) wouldn't actually confer any extra lives at all. I begin to suspect I may not be adequately conveying my intentions. :?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:15 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 443
Location: Monastery of the White Monks
Zizzo wrote:
  • When to add lives: I could just shift all of adventure mode's new-life levels up some, but I think "late game" is more tied to how far you've gotten, and that will happen at different levels for Yeeks versus Ghouls. My thought is to give extra lives at various events in the late game — say, going to the east, making the portal back to the west, making the portal back to the east, and the four orc prides. (I think that works out to the same number of extra lives as adventure mode.)
  • Achievements: The implementation strategy I'm working on would, if I'm following the code correctly, have the side effect that achievements gained before you get any extra lives would register as roguelike-mode achievements and achievements gained after you get extra lives would register as adventure-mode achievements. Is this considered acceptable? I'm pretty sure it would be impossible to add an entire new set of semi-roguelike-mode achievements (not to mention that it would bloat the already huge number of achievements…).

So. Thoughts?


I like this idea. End game is where you really want those extra lives, and if you loose too many at a low level you may as well re-roll. I also don't like to play rougelike, because I have died more than once where I have NO IDEA what happened, and I don't want that BS happening to a character I've spent a couple dozen hours on. I like the idea of earning lives for hitting major points in the quests rather than by level, but I would like at least one before Dreadfell. Maybe for completing all the T2 dungeons? I know it is not necessary to complete them all to go to Dreadfell, but earning an extra life would certainly provide motivation to do so. Maybe that instead of the one for going East?

As far as achi's, I think it would be possible to add an entire new set. 'Everything is Unique' does it. That said, I don't really think this is necessary.
Whether people feel this is a "dishonest" way to earn some Roguelike achi's is really going to depend on each individual player, so I would just build it however you feel is fair. Personally, I think the scheme you described would be perfectly fine. Earning Roguelike achi's before you get that first extra life and then Adventure achi's thereafter is effectively the same as earning them in either of those modes. You'll still have to play true Roguelike to get those later achi's, and in the early game you would have no advantage over Roguelike anyhow.
Perhaps you could add an option in the menu that would allow the player to disable earning achievements while running the add on, though, in case there are folks that are real sticklers about their achi's? I don't know if that's possible, but it's a thought.
Personally, I don't give a hoot about achi's unless they unlock something, and those can all be earned with the Exploration achi's anyway.

Semi-roguelike doesn't really roll off the tongue though, how about "Rogueventure Mode" ? :D


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:40 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
nsrr wrote:
I like this idea. End game is where you really want those extra lives, and if you loose too many at a low level you may as well re-roll. I also don't like to play rougelike, because I have died more than once where I have NO IDEA what happened, and I don't want that BS happening to a character I've spent a couple dozen hours on.

Testify. :mrgreen:

nsrr wrote:
I like the idea of earning lives for hitting major points in the quests rather than by level, but I would like at least one before Dreadfell. Maybe for completing all the T2 dungeons? I know it is not necessary to complete them all to go to Dreadfell, but earning an extra life would certainly provide motivation to do so. Maybe that instead of the one for going East?

Mmm, yes, I can see this is probably going to come down to personal taste. The proverbial camel-back-breaking straw that got me started on this was a test character that got blindsided in Reknor by AFAICT something invisible or stealthed that got literally four critical hits on me in a row, :evil: which is why I put all the lives after that.

…It occurs to me, though, that we could just as easily add multiple descriptors with different arrangements of life gains. So, given the seven extra lives from Adventure mode, what game events would you put them on? [Ideally events that can be detected by a quest changing status, as that's how I'm catching all the current ones.]

nsrr wrote:
As far as achi's, I think it would be possible to add an entire new set. 'Everything is Unique' does it.

Wow. Does that work with Steam? Because I recall that being a problem back when we first started having different achievements for different difficulty modes — it was more total achievements than Steam could handle at the time, as I recall.

nsrr wrote:
Perhaps you could add an option in the menu that would allow the player to disable earning achievements while running the add on, though, in case there are folks that are real sticklers about their achi's? I don't know if that's possible, but it's a thought.

(shrug) Dunno if that's possible either; I'll have to investigate. If I went that route, though, probably the most straightforward approach would be to optionally have achievements gained while in semi-roguelike mode register as adventure-mode achievements.

nsrr wrote:
Semi-roguelike doesn't really roll off the tongue though, how about "Rogueventure Mode" ? :D

*blink* Um… I dunno… :?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:04 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 4:27 pm
Posts: 710
To not worry about details and specifics, you can just give an extra life for every two quests completed. I think this should give the right pace.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:06 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
Posts: 641
I've always considered The Master the first real test of the character, possiblyt as well as Urkis. They'd seem like a good spot for the first life.
But then I rarely play with limited lives so my opinion's fairly irrelevant here.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 12:43 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 443
Location: Monastery of the White Monks
Zizzo wrote:
…It occurs to me, though, that we could just as easily add multiple descriptors with different arrangements of life gains. So, given the seven extra lives from Adventure mode, what game events would you put them on? [Ideally events that can be detected by a quest changing status, as that's how I'm catching all the current ones.]


One for finishing T2s, one for going east, one for returning, one for going back east, one for finishing two prides, another for the other two, and the last one for entering High Peak? That gives you one before Dreadfell, a couple mid-game, and the bulk of them in the run up to High Peak.

Zizzo wrote:
nsrr wrote:
As far as achi's, I think it would be possible to add an entire new set. 'Everything is Unique' does it.

Wow. Does that work with Steam? Because I recall that being a problem back when we first started having different achievements for different difficulty modes — it was more total achievements than Steam could handle at the time, as I recall.


I'm not sure about Steam. I wasn't playing via Steam for a few months because the OS on the ancient Mac I was using stopped being supported. Could be that is the case. Also, it occurred to me that there are two versions of Uniques and it's possible the achi's were only added on the original (which throws a LUA error when you try to view the character sheet) and not the fork.
Again, I don't really think it's necessary to have a whole new set, just pointing out that that I had seen it done by at least one other add on in some capacity.

Zizzo wrote:
nsrr wrote:
Perhaps you could add an option in the menu that would allow the player to disable earning achievements while running the add on, though, in case there are folks that are real sticklers about their achi's? I don't know if that's possible, but it's a thought.

(shrug) Dunno if that's possible either; I'll have to investigate. If I went that route, though, probably the most straightforward approach would be to optionally have achievements gained while in semi-roguelike mode register as adventure-mode achievements.

That seems legit. Probably easier to arrange / more favorable than not earning any.

Zizzo wrote:
nsrr wrote:
Semi-roguelike doesn't really roll off the tongue though, how about "Rogueventure Mode" ? :D

*blink* Um… I dunno… :?


Merely a suggestion :wink: I expect no one to share my enjoyment of terrible word play :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:48 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
nsrr wrote:
One for finishing T2s, one for going east, one for returning, one for going back east, one for finishing two prides, another for the other two, and the last one for entering High Peak? That gives you one before Dreadfell, a couple mid-game, and the bulk of them in the run up to High Peak.

Right, finishing T2s can be caught by watching for the Into the Darkness quest to be completed, and… [sound F/X: source diving] entering High Peak is where the Falling Toward Apotheosis quest is granted, so that should be catchable too.

astralinferno wrote:
I've always considered The Master the first real test of the character, possiblyt as well as Urkis. They'd seem like a good spot for the first life.

Hmm, sounds like we could have "mild", "medium" and "spicy" descriptors here. So with the first two lives on Urkis and Dreadfell, where would you put the other five?

nsrr wrote:
Zizzo wrote:
If I went that route, though, probably the most straightforward approach would be to optionally have achievements gained while in semi-roguelike mode register as adventure-mode achievements.

That seems legit. Probably easier to arrange / more favorable than not earning any.

[sound F/X: source diving] …and that looks achievable too, assuming that superloading mod.class.World is kosher.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:31 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:40 am
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Well, one of them has to be on going east, obviously, but... hm.

Have you considered putting them on the optional dungeons, as a reward for doing them? Things like Dark Crypt, Temple of Creation/Underwater Cave, Melinda's Crypt, the Elven Tombs?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 5:39 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
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Location: Yeehaw, pardner
One for finishing Dreadfell, one for making it to the east, one for each pride, and then one for high peak. As for the 7th... Stuff it somewhere in the T2s. Maybe after Daikara?

EDIT: or maybe one life for unlocking the sher'tul fortress.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:55 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
Micbran wrote:
One for finishing Dreadfell, one for making it to the east, one for each pride, and then one for high peak. As for the 7th...

Hang on… [counts] that's already seven.

astralInferno wrote:
Have you considered putting them on the optional dungeons, as a reward for doing them? Things like Dark Crypt,

Urk… I took a Dwarf Bulwark down there once, and my duplicate and I ended up fighting to a standstill. :roll:

astralInferno wrote:
Temple of Creation

Heard of that one; haven't found it yet.

astralInferno wrote:
Melinda's Crypt,

Right, gotta get around to trying to complete that… :| Yeah, I suppose those would be doable, assuming they all have quests to watch for. I'll investigate.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:02 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
So, taking a closer look at these:

astralInferno wrote:
Dark Crypt,

You do mean Shadow Crypt here, yes? The one in the East? That one doesn't have a quest attached to it AFAICT, though it does have an achievement, and since we're already superloading World:gainAchievement(), we should be able to catch that.

astralInferno wrote:
Temple of Creation/Underwater Cave,

[sound F/X: source diving] Oh, right, that's all part of the naga stuff. Yeah, that has a quest, so we're good.

astralInferno wrote:
Melinda's Crypt,

[sound F/X: source diving] Also has a quest.

astralInferno wrote:
the Elven Tombs?

Do you mean Ancient Elven Ruins here? AFAICT that one doesn't have either a quest or an achievement associated with it, so I'm not sure how we could detect completion of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:04 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 443
Location: Monastery of the White Monks
Zizzo wrote:
astralInferno wrote:
the Elven Tombs?

Do you mean Ancient Elven Ruins here? AFAICT that one doesn't have either a quest or an achievement associated with it, so I'm not sure how we could detect completion of it.


You could attach it to the Boss, maybe? In Ashes the forced Walrog spawn is triggered by the death of the dragon and naga using a superload of the die function in mod/class/actor which looks for them by name:

Quote:
local die = _M.die
function _M:die(src, ...)
local ret = die(self, src, ...)

if src and ((src.resolveSource and src:resolveSource().player) or src.player) then
if self.type == "demon" then
local p = game.party:findMember{main=true}
world:gainAchievement("ASHES_DEMO", p, self)
world:gainAchievement("ASHES_OLD_ONES", p, self)
end
end
if self.name == "Ukllmswwik the Wise" then
game.state.walrog_wanna_pop = game.state.walrog_wanna_pop or {}
game.state.walrog_wanna_pop.ukllmswwik = true
end
if self.name == "Slasul" then
game.state.walrog_wanna_pop = game.state.walrog_wanna_pop or {}
game.state.walrog_wanna_pop.slasul = true
end
if game.state.walrog_wanna_pop and game.state.walrog_wanna_pop.slasul and game.state.walrog_wanna_pop.ukllmswwik then

local Map = require "engine.Map"
local Chat = require "engine.Chat"
local npc = game.zone:makeEntityByName(game.level, "actor", "WALROG")
local x, y = util.findFreeGrid(self.x, self.y, 5, true, {[Map.ACTOR]=true})
if npc and x and y then
game.zone:addEntity(game.level, npc, "actor", x, y)
local chat = Chat.new("ashes-urhrok-walrog-pop", npc, game:getPlayer(true), {kind=self.name == "Slasul" and "naga" or "dragon"})
chat:invoke()
end
end

return ret
end

Use something similar that looks for the name of the boss (or bosses... I think Ancient Elven Ruins has two possible bosses?) that will grant the player an extra life when they die. Something like:
Quote:
if self.name == "Mummy King" then
game.state.ancient_ruins_life = game.state.state.ancient_ruins_life or {}
game.state.ancient_ruins_life.king = true
end
if self.name == "Mummy Queen" then
game.state.ancient_ruins_life = game.state.state.ancient_ruins_life or {}
game.state.ancient_ruins_life.queen = true
end
if game.state.ancient_ruins_life and (game.state.ancient_ruins_life.king or game.state.ancient_ruins_life.queen) then
game.player.lives = game.player.lives + 1
end

Didn't actually do enough code diving on this to see what the bosses actual names are or if that's the right way to grant the player a life, but I think that's enough to get the idea across.

I don't recall off the top of my head if they resurrect or not, that might complicate it a little.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:49 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:13 pm
Posts: 1331
Location: A shallow water area south of Bree
Well, it would take far too long to fully test this (namely getting at least two characters all the way to High Peak… :shock: ), and I've probably left you fine folk hanging too long as it is, so I'm going to go ahead and release this as a beta test. In the final analysis, we ended up with four semi-roguelike permadeath descriptors:
And as suggested by nsrr, the "Semi-roguelike achievements" game option under the Gameplay tab controls how achievements are handled.

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