ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:34 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
Thanks guys, that gives me a lot to work with. Current plan then:

- Tentacles will probably lose the skill failure and get a movement speed reduction instead, and the damage greatly reduced
- Crimson Barrier is getting a slight rework anyway, part of which involves losing the drain, I'll also cap the heal mod
- Brittle Bones will have the resist no longer scale with spellpower and the damage will get capped
- Corpsewall will get a damage reduction
- At some point Meta ia going to be replaced with a Lich specific tree
- Grave in general is losing CC. The new version just has freeze and pin
- Blood is Power is absurd and will be heavily reduced in power
- I'll check the numbers on Exsanguinate
- Advanced minions will lose some power
- Lich is replacing Vampiric Gift as getting it free is a bit too good, and there's already a whole lifeleech tree

That should put us in a much better state.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:45 am
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Razakai wrote:
Thanks guys, that gives me a lot to work with. Current plan then:

- Tentacles will probably lose the skill failure and get a movement speed reduction instead, and the damage greatly reduced
- Crimson Barrier is getting a slight rework anyway, part of which involves losing the drain, I'll also cap the heal mod
- Brittle Bones will have the resist no longer scale with spellpower and the damage will get capped
- Corpsewall will get a damage reduction
- At some point Meta ia going to be replaced with a Lich specific tree
- Grave in general is losing CC. The new version just has freeze and pin
- Blood is Power is absurd and will be heavily reduced in power
- I'll check the numbers on Exsanguinate
- Advanced minions will lose some power
- Lich is replacing Vampiric Gift as getting it free is a bit too good, and there's already a whole lifeleech tree

That should put us in a much better state.

Sounds good!

(Just to clarify: By CC I mean crowd control, i.e. stuns, freezes, pins, slows...
Regarding Grave: It has more CC than the Corpse or Lifesteal tree, so it needs to compensate by having something less: less damage, or less life steal or other survivability, etc.
If you only consider damage, a tree that has a lot of DOT, it should do more DPS than a tree with lots of burst, because burst is always better. This is not necessarily true if the are secondary effects, for example for life steal DOT can be better if your health pool caps the amount of health you can regenerate.)

You could also consider that becoming a lich requires a category point. I think that would be a good offset.

About Blood is Power: It might be more fun to nerf the damage boost moderately, and instead increase the disadvantages, i.e. in this case making it cost massive amounts of health. Currently, it is easy to get ca. 100 health per second using only DOT, so a full stack Blood is Power could easily consume 200 health per second.
(It could also be fun to not have a cap, so that people get greedy and kill themselves. I don't think it could be exploited, as long as you don't have access to the Aegis tree. And as long as the effect cannot be cleansed, reduced, transfered etc., like the Causterize prodigy.)
The CC/AOE part can be heavily nerfed, or even removed IMHO. Or make casting it take a turn.

About Exsanguinate numbers: I think it should at least give less Lifesteal than the Sun Paladins single-target AOE. (Probably much less, because it is AOE.)

About Brittle Bones: I think the biggest problem is not the single-target damage, but the interaction with Devouring Swarm. Because the swarm can trigger an unlimited amount of times during one turn (until there are no jumps left), it can trigger Brittle Bones many times during one turn. Given enough critters, this results in thousands of AOE burst damage.
Suggested fix: Make Devouring Swarm only jump once per turn.

Devouring Swarm is also very strong, even only considering the damage. Every jump resets the swarm duration, so it does more damage than you naively would expect.
Even without jumping once, it does 50% more damage than Drain Life, in less time! (On the other hand, it does not give lifesteal, is in an advanced high-level tree etc.)
Maybe make it do less damage, and/or make it transfer a limited amount of effects (scaling with skill level).
(Currently, I think it is worth getting even without the effect transfer! But without the transfer the spell would not be as interesting.)

EDIT:

How do you want to nerf Advanced Minions? I never used that tree, so I'm not sure how powerful it is at the moment. It always seemed to me that Minon Mastery is a bad skill, because I think Skeletons are much more dangerous than Vampires and Wights (they do more damage and stun). (Dreads and Lichs are nice though, I'm however not sure whether that compensates haven less skeletons and more vampires/wights.)

And also, vanilla necromancers can unlock the Ice tree. Any reason for why you removed that?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:09 pm
Posts: 157
Re: Brittle Bones & Devouring Swarm interaction
I actually can't really talk much about this. I found it hard to quantify or even justify devouring swarm's effectiveness in most situations, because anything that hasn't been boosted by Everything is Unique dies almost immediately. Therefore, I usually ended up only fighting one or two 10k+ hp foes at a time, where transferring debuffs isn't very useful.

That said, I was getting 3k+ damage brittle bones explosions from 1 target. Let's break down how I was getting that:
250 base damage
70 per additional hit
200% crit mod
= 500 + 150*hits
So, let's count hits.
Let's assume that damage splitting (a la Finger of Death) doesn't count for multiple hits. I'm not sure about this
Let's assume I've got my opening offensive barrage of summons: 2 forgeries of haze and a half dozen black tentacles.
Brittle Bones lasts for 5 turns.
Rough estimate of what will hit an one turn:
me, both forgeries of haze, black tentacles DOT, black tentacles grasping DOT, black tentacle melee
6 individual hits/turn * 5 turns = 30 hits.
500 + 150*30 = 5000
therefore, it deals in the neighbourhood of 5000 damage, minus resistances, to a tough foe and anything unlucky enough to be in radius 3.

I'd test in the training room, but I've gone into the ID.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:04 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:45 am
Posts: 28
I see, so you combined Brittle Bones with summons. I did not try that (playing a caster necro). I agree that the damage should be capped (or grow logarithmically).

Using the interaction with Devouring Swarm, I got ridiculous amounts of damage in the midgame (there has to be some 'dies instantly' stuff around to start the chain reaction though).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:00 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
Well, Nightfall gets confuse/blind/knockback/slow, Vampirism gets knockback/daze and lots of defence and utility from the lifesteal aspect. Grave in the new version just has (random chance) freeze and pin, so bursty AoE damage is it's niche. Although yes, if Vampirism's DoTs run their full duration they'll be slightly higher damage than Grave, especially if you get a 3 stack Blood is Power.

Eventually, what Lich will do is give a new generic category, Archlich. The base Lichform will be slightly weaker, but if you invest into Archlich you'll unlock lots of nice stuff. Not sure on the details yet, it'll mostly be passive boosts to stuff, and a capstone talent that does something involving a Phylactery, as that's a very Lich thing. Presumably some sort of 1shot protection, but not sure yet.

Currently the new Blood is Power gives about a 25% damage increase at 3 stacks, down from the ridiculous 41%. It's also no longer instant and drains 1.5% of your max hp per turn instead. The AoE can stay, as it's fairly balanced now it's not an instant nuke. We'll see how that goes.

Exsanguinate gives about 23% lifesteal at 5/5, so half of that of Mark of Light or w/e the name is. As it has 50% uptime, a 10% lifesteal is pretty decent.

Brittle Bones works a little differently now. It has no base damage, and caps at 5 'stacks', of which you can only apply 1 stack per turn. So the final damage is around that of a T1 nuke (Invoke Darkness etc). The resist all no longer scales either, it's about 30-35% at 5/5. So when it bounces via Swarm, the damage of the secondary explosions should be quite low, although that'll need testing.

Advanced Minions are very strong now compared to base game. They have tactical AI and new skills, which has resulted in them obliterating things by chaincasting their best spells. Having a pack of Wights/Vampires (which now know stuff like Freeze and Invoke Darkness) inflicts enormous damage, so they'll lose a few of the new abilities.

Well, Ice felt a bit redundant, and also because Uttercold wouldn't be able to stack with Frostdusk due to both giving cold penetration (well, they could, but 100% reduction is too overpowered). The new Grave tree fills the same niche as Ice so removing it felt better than having to code Frostdusk/Uttercold to not stack.

Also, I think Meta might be removed next patch. I didn't think about double Forgery as that's totally gamebreaking, and considering there's no more friendly fire spells it can go. Archlich can be the new locked generic once I code it up.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:09 pm
Posts: 157
Potential Archlich tree:
Finger of Death:
as-is. (but please add a special message saying when it insta-kills something! I think it isn't working properly yet!)

(I'm not sure about a second skill. Passive, probably.)

Dark Power:
sustain
reduces spell cooldowns by up to 20%, increases spellpower by up to 20% of willpower, but increases fatigue by up to 50%
Phylactery:
active
In becoming a lich, a phylactery is charged; a small reservoir of incredible dark magics for your own personal use.
While it is in your possession, it can also be invoked to remove (1,1,2,2,3) detrimental magical effect(s) from you, healing you for X life. The amount healed scales with spellpower.
Upon death, your phylactery will shatter, restoring you to the full height of your power.
- At level 1, it will restore you to full health.
- At level 2, it will replenish your resources to full.
- At level 3, it will instantly activate all your sustains.
- At level 4, it will give you a powerful damage shield protect you from new status effects for 5 turns.
- At level 5, it will dramatically increase your spellpower for 5 turns.
- At level 6, it will attempt to disintegrate all foes around you for massive dark damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:10 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
Yeah, that seems pretty good. I was thinking the first generic would be something like 'Death's Embrace: increases damage against low health targets, increases your resists when you're at low hp, and gives Finger of Death' so that fits. 2nd skill would be an undead themed thing, increases damage/resist vs undead targets and maybe some resistances/saves or the like. 3rd skill is exactly like that, I wanted a cooldown reduction one so that fits pretty well.
I quite like that idea of Phylactery, a one time death protection like Skeleton racial, plus a nice usage effect. Originally I was going to make it rechargable but cost like 10 souls, but Necromancer is already really good so maybe a one time thing is best.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:27 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:45 am
Posts: 28
Orangeflame wrote:
Potential Archlich tree:
Finger of Death:
as-is. (but please add a special message saying when it insta-kills something! I think it isn't working properly yet!)

(I'm not sure about a second skill. Passive, probably.)

Dark Power:
sustain
reduces spell cooldowns by up to 20%, increases spellpower by up to 20% of willpower, but increases fatigue by up to 50%
Phylactery:
active
In becoming a lich, a phylactery is charged; a small reservoir of incredible dark magics for your own personal use.
While it is in your possession, it can also be invoked to remove (1,1,2,2,3) detrimental magical effect(s) from you, healing you for X life. The amount healed scales with spellpower.
Upon death, your phylactery will shatter, restoring you to the full height of your power.
- At level 1, it will restore you to full health.
- At level 2, it will replenish your resources to full.
- At level 3, it will instantly activate all your sustains.
- At level 4, it will give you a powerful damage shield protect you from new status effects for 5 turns.
- At level 5, it will dramatically increase your spellpower for 5 turns.
- At level 6, it will attempt to disintegrate all foes around you for massive dark damage.

Phylactery sounds extremely OP (if it can be used more than once in a game). At level 1 it is already better than a prodigy.

BTW, HousePet's Arcanum has an item that gives a Death Ray (darkness + cold that kills targets that end up with less than 20% health) that might work.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:46 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
Yeah, that implementation of Phylactery would be a one off like Skeleton Reassemble. If it was reusable it'd be dramatically weaker, but I think making it a one time thing is better balanced. 5 generics and a cat point + Lichform's cost for a Blood of Life+ is pretty good.
And as far as I can tell, Finger of Death should be working. I'll poke around at it later.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:07 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 20
Got a bug for ya. Using Crimson Barrier pops this message. Seems to work as normal, but the shield bar doesn't appear over the health bar. And because embed hates me, have a link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhckqv1gvjmuv ... 869307.png


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:48 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 367
Heyo, trying this out...

and am confused? :)

So I finished the lich quest, after which a Talent Level 1 'Lichform' talent popped up on my hotkey list, but did not show up on my character leveling setup.

It did not let me sustain it though despite saying it was a sustain. Or click it at all.

It said to die to become a lich, so I went ahead and tried that...and nothing happened? Just a normal death?

What should I be doing to actually go become a lich? The Death from life quest is over, so not sure what the next steps are in it, and the talent not doing anything is certainly confusing me.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:33 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:45 am
Posts: 28
Dracos wrote:
Heyo, trying this out...

and am confused? :)

So I finished the lich quest, after which a Talent Level 1 'Lichform' talent popped up on my hotkey list, but did not show up on my character leveling setup.

It did not let me sustain it though despite saying it was a sustain. Or click it at all.

It said to die to become a lich, so I went ahead and tried that...and nothing happened? Just a normal death?

What should I be doing to actually go become a lich? The Death from life quest is over, so not sure what the next steps are in it, and the talent not doing anything is certainly confusing me.

Are you playing an undead race? Because then you cannot become a lich.

You need to die while the mana-draining lich sustain is active in order to become a lich.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:27 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 367
Playing a Higher. And the sustain never lets me activate it. ...

OH.

I had an item equipped, that said User is treated as undead, no longer has to breath.

Because it was equipped, lichform wouldn't trigger and indeed it vanishes in and out depending on if it is equipped.

Wow, I had totally put that on earlier since it felt fitting toward the 'becoming undead' angle. I didn't expect it to literally block Lichform from working :(

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:21 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 832
http://te4.org/node/4234

v2.8

-Fixed a bug with Crimson Barrier on certain shader settings
-Frozen Orb has been removed due to implementation issues. It will be added back in some form at a later point
-New Tier 1 Grave spell, Gravespike. Fires a bolt of cold that shatters into a freezing cone behind the target, with a chance to trigger additional ice splinters
-Black Ice has been removed due to balance issues
-New Tier 2 Grave spell, Frozen Tomb. Increases iceblock penetration and gives your cold damage a chance to freeze
-Chill of the Tomb is now the Tier 3 Grave spell
-Hungering Cold deals slightly reduced damage, and now Pins and reduces Stun resistance
-Meta has been removed
-Vampiric Gift has been removed
-Lichform has returned as the Tier 4 Necrosis talent. Now grants Finger of Death ranks based on point investment
-Black Tentacles no longer applies skill failure, now reduces movement speed
-Brittle Bones now has a cap on the damage dealt
-Death Vortex can only restore a maximum of 1 soul per turn
-Many other spells have had their effects, damage and cost rebalanced

This isn't as much as I'd like to have released, but it'll do for now. Lots of nerfs all round, so I'll be interested to see how Necromancer feels now. I'm not sure Frozen Tomb is a very compelling talent currently, it might get more effects in the future. Apart from bugfixes, the next plan is to get Frozen Orb working again, add Archlich, and do another balance pass.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:58 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 1:33 pm
Posts: 303
I remember dungeons of dredmor had a phylactery spell in its blood magic tree. You'd get a powerful potion on use, but you also would get a rather nasty debuff until you used said potion. Something similar could be interesting or something. I dunno.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that Lichform's life rating increase was made retroactive in this mod, but the talent description says that it still isn't. Is it?
I don't remember when this happened, but I can see my hp just fine in the negatives.

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