ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Two recent updates:

- The Aether Beam "trap" is no longer auto-disarmed whenever anything walks on it. It has a Disarm check equal to (caster's Spellpower/2), which is low enough that I expect most Rogue types to have a fair shot at it, which is nice for the player. If the Disarm check fails, the trap explodes for (caster's Spellpower * 2) in radius 3, and the beam keeps going for its usual duration.

- Speed Control now requires Willpower rather than Magic. This makes the early Temporal Warden game more interesting, since you can ignore Magic early on while still getting some value from your status effect spells and from Celerity, and it means a Paradox Mage has two Willpower trees rather than just one Willpower tree.

TW may still want Magic investment later for the Time Travel tree.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:05 am 
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Uruivellas

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Vine Lassos can be cast beyond their maximum range, pulling enemies their range tiles closer.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:58 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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oops.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm
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New items and talents tweaks are great, but what is the reason to remove healing infusions? AM chars are heavily penalized.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:42 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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ghostbuster wrote:
New items and talents tweaks are great, but what is the reason to remove healing infusions? AM chars are heavily penalized.
Hey ghostbuster, glad you like the tweaks so far.

Regarding Healing Infusions, they broke some major gameplay and thematic partition between magic and anti-magic.

AM gets:
- Incredible durability.
- DoT mitigation.
- Regeneration extension and buffs.

Magic gets:
- Lots of escapes and "OH SH--" buttons.
- Big one-shot healing spells (Arcane Reconstruction, Healing Light, Blood Grasp, Body Reversion).

Healing Infusions were a big one-shot healing effect and an "OH SH--" button. Also, I noticed that for undead characters and golems spells like Healing Light were absurdly good mostly due to how difficult it was for them to heal otherwise. I'd prefer it if undead non-casters (like Skeleton Rogues) were not so dramatically penalized.

It's also a mild nerf for Oozemancers, while making the choice between Magic or AM more interesting for Wyrmics, since Wyrmics start with Fungus unlocked but are not forced to go AM. Magic-based Wyrmics are fun, and with this change, I think their playstyle will be more distinctive from the standard AM Wyrmic.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:46 pm 
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Uruivellas

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I must say that I am not really convinced by your arguments.

Yes non-AM wyrmic are fun, and it is probably (already) the best path for a wyrmic wielding 2h-weapons. But, the healing infusion replacement does not change anything at that. And I am not sure that AM-wyrmic are so powerful to deserve this kind of nerf.

Yes this modification is good for skelettons, but at least they already have a way to heal themselves, and with shields, undead fighters are already quite doable.

But for many AM chars, it is a very big nerf. AM zerkers or rogue were already difficult, but, if you add to the usual AM restrictions, the fact that they have absolutely no solution to get an instant heal (except some rare items) and that one of the most powerful fungus talent (fungal growth) becomes useless, the AM path will become a *no way*. The same is probably true to a lesser extend for doomed, mindslayer, etc.

So, IMO, this kind of modification will reduce the diversity of builds, instead of increasing it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:45 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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ghostbuster wrote:
I must say that I am not really convinced by your arguments.
I'm not making any arguments. I'm showing you my design notes.

I'm also not going to try to convince you that going for Anti-Magic means making a sacrifice. To me that's pretty obvious from the game's lore, but you're not required to agree with me.


ghostbuster wrote:
But for many AM chars, it is a very big nerf. AM zerkers or rogue were already difficult, but, if you add to the usual AM restrictions, the fact that they have absolutely no solution to get an instant heal (except some rare items) and that one of the most powerful fungus talent (fungal growth) becomes useless, the AM path will become a *no way*. The same is probably true to a lesser extend for doomed, mindslayer, etc.
It's rare to see someone say nice things about Fungal Growth. Most people seem to leave it as a 1/5 speed bump on their way to the actual good stuff (Ancestral Growth). Expert advice seems to be "right-click to cancel that shit before you use your REAL regen infusion".

That said, you're incorrect when you say it "becomes useless". AM characters still have options for direct heals.
- Call of the Wild / Nature's Touch (every Wilder has this)
- Amulet of Healing
- Wyrmic's Swallow
- Summoner's Turtle w/ Grand Entrance, or any summon with a heal-on-wild-summon item.
... etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:45 pm 
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I am using Tweak pack, and I've noticed that for whatever reason the manasurge runes are very scarce in shops with it. So far I've seen couple manasurge runes in shops over 5 playthroughs with casters, and it is bumming me out, since I have to rely on the starter manasurge runes, which are meh (and I haven't seen any manasurge runes drop so far either).

Edit: okay, I did miss one in angolwen. But my point stands, before I could choose from maybe five to ten across shops in Angolwen, this Shalore town and Lost Hope, now I get 1 across 3 shops if I am lucky.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:39 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Xanoxt wrote:
I am using Tweak pack, and I've noticed that for whatever reason the manasurge runes are very scarce in shops with it. So far I've seen couple manasurge runes in shops over 5 playthroughs with casters, and it is bumming me out, since I have to rely on the starter manasurge runes, which are meh (and I haven't seen any manasurge runes drop so far either).

Edit: okay, I did miss one in angolwen. But my point stands, before I could choose from maybe five to ten across shops in Angolwen, this Shalore town and Lost Hope, now I get 1 across 3 shops if I am lucky.
Which runes are you seeing instead of Manasurge?

Manasurge and Phase Door ought to still be very common (on average, across lots of games), but I've mostly been testing this in StarKeep's Infinite Farportal campaign, let me go start some regular Maj'Eyal games and see what distribution I get.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:57 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Xanoxt wrote:
I am using Tweak pack, and I've noticed that for whatever reason the manasurge runes are very scarce in shops with it.
Okay, I think I found the issue.

In the core code, Manasurge are actually pretty rare (rarity 22 rather than 16 or so for attack runes), but they were the only low-level runes available, so they showed up everywhere at low level and nowhere at high level.

I'm going to make them slightly less rare (18 rather than 22).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:11 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Doctornull wrote:
I'm going to make them slightly less rare (18 rather than 22).
Seems to work.

Pushing that fix out along with two other tweaks:

- Replace Stoning Poison with Vitrification Poison (partially turn your opponent's body into glass, lowering armour hardiness and physical damage resistance, and deals Physical damage over time instead of Nature damage).

- Magical Combat requirements changed to be like Combat Techniques: you can meet the stat requirement with either Strength or Dexterity. Should make dagger-flurry builds more viable.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:15 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:28 pm
Posts: 393
Doctornull wrote:
ghostbuster wrote:
But for many AM chars, it is a very big nerf. AM zerkers or rogue were already difficult, but, if you add to the usual AM restrictions, the fact that they have absolutely no solution to get an instant heal (except some rare items) and that one of the most powerful fungus talent (fungal growth) becomes useless, the AM path will become a *no way*. The same is probably true to a lesser extend for doomed, mindslayer, etc.
It's rare to see someone say nice things about Fungal Growth. Most people seem to leave it as a 1/5 speed bump on their way to the actual good stuff (Ancestral Growth). Expert advice seems to be "right-click to cancel that shit before you use your REAL regen infusion".

That said, you're incorrect when you say it "becomes useless". AM characters still have options for direct heals.
- Call of the Wild / Nature's Touch (every Wilder has this)
- Amulet of Healing
- Wyrmic's Swallow
- Summoner's Turtle w/ Grand Entrance, or any summon with a heal-on-wild-summon item.
... etc.


I wanted to voice my thoughts on this issue. Regarding Nature's Touch/Swallow/Summoner, those are only available to Wilders (though I suppose you could get them from escorts, but I believe that to be a design flaw that needs fixing, not emulation), and the latter two are class-specific, and don't do anything at all to help the classes that ghostbuster mentioned earlier in the thread. That leaves the Amulet of Healing for non-Wilder instant heals, which isn't really much in the way of 'options for direct heals.' Basically, if RNG gives you one of these amulets, it's serving as something that normally takes up the far more abundant (and easily acquired) inscription slot, and there's also the opportunity cost of the amulet slot, which tends to be a higher opportunity cost than that of multiple, buy-with-a-cat-point inscription slots.

Doctornull, I definitely see where you're coming from regarding the thematics of arcane vs AM, burst healing vs regen, but I believe this is a rather severe nerf to the viability of AM as an option for a few classes, including rogue, bulwark, & berserker. Seeing as Wilders do get a direct heal in Nature's Touch, and that Fungus has one as well (albeit based off current life regen rate), perhaps healing infusions could heal for less than reconstruction runes, but with shorter cooldowns (though still subject to infusion saturation, of course)?

That aside, I love a lot of the tweaks you've put into here, though I've yet to try them out myself (out of some strange compulsion to have beaten the game the way it was made, at least once). I'm especially excited to try out your changes to the stat reqs for Magical Combat, as I've always had a blast with Arcane Blades.

Side note, unrelated to Nulltweaks: I'm very excited to give dual-dagger melee Storm Warden a shot this weekend, as from what I've noticed, arcane surges are absolutely OP early game!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:44 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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malboro_urchin wrote:
Doctornull, I definitely see where you're coming from regarding the thematics of arcane vs AM, burst healing vs regen, but I believe this is a rather severe nerf to the viability of AM as an option for a few classes, including rogue, bulwark, & berserker.
I think I'll add a Totem of Healing ego, which will do burst-healing but take up a different slot.

Also it'll be generally inferior to using a Regeneration Infusion.

malboro_urchin wrote:
That aside, I love a lot of the tweaks you've put into here, though I've yet to try them out myself (out of some strange compulsion to have beaten the game the way it was made, at least once). I'm especially excited to try out your changes to the stat reqs for Magical Combat, as I've always had a blast with Arcane Blades.

Side note, unrelated to Nulltweaks: I'm very excited to give dual-dagger melee Storm Warden a shot this weekend, as from what I've noticed, arcane surges are absolutely OP early game!
Storm Warden is getting a re-work soon. The four Arcane Surge talents will remain, but you'll get all of them at once, and the 4 talents in the tree will buff each of them, instead of allowing you to buff one of them and ignore the others.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:56 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:28 pm
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Squee! My ideas got replied to and accepted by Doctornull! Extra squee!! Also, I think the tool slot is far more acceptable, as long as these totems can be found, at the very least, in a shop or two.

Edit: feedback re: Nullpack moved to appropriate thread

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Mewtarthio wrote:
Ever wonder why Tarelion sends you into the Abashed Expanse instead of a team of archmages lead by himself? They all figured "Eh, might as well toss that violent oaf up in there and see if he manages to kick things back into place.


Last edited by malboro_urchin on Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:20 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Location: Ambush!
I appreciate the feedback.

However, Stormwarden discussion should really go in the Nullpack thread.

Thanks!

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