ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:34 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
I'd like to have a discussion about Archer with the community. Whenever I bring up this topic I get flamed, labeled as a troll, slandered, have ad hominem attacks thrown at me left and right, and bullied. I shouldn't feel afraid to have a discussion about a popular class in a game I'm passionate about, but sadly, I am. I know people will use it as an excuse to assassinate my character or troll me. But I'm tired of being afraid to state my opinion, and I welcome anyone to counter the points I'm about to make.

This seems like a topic that many people would consider personal. From what I've seen, people turn it into an emotional argument, rather than a discussion based on facts and proof. It always ends up with "in practice", never with theory. In this thread I will post theory, taken from the source code, the source code, and from a veteran player. This is not a troll thread. There is NO comedy to be found in anything that I write. It isn't meant to be funny. As I said, I will only state facts.

To start it off, yes, I admit that Archer is a strong class. What exactly is holding it back? What do other classes have on it? How does it compare to said classes? Why is it in theory not a top 5 class? Does it need nerfs? Yes. I'll go over everything, don't worry. I want more people to see the truth. I know I've made numerous people to start to consider it. With each passing day I see more and more players start to see the class for what it truly is. I feel scared, like this thread might actually cause trouble, and like I said, when I bring this topic up around people it usually starts a flame war. I don't want that! I just want to talk about the class. The goal of all of this is to get this strong class nerfed, but the stronger classes nerfed more.

Let's start by going over the pros and cons of the class

Pros: Called Shots, Concealment, Intuitive Shots, and possibly one of the best pins in the game

Cons: has to check if every shot marked to get full damage (how much time does this actually add to a run? maybe an hour? and thats just checking for marks), can get one shot by another archer, awful armor hardiness thats on par with rogue and brawler, has to choose between a movement or a movement infusion, there are times where you HAVE to play safe, or you'll die.

Now with those out of the way, we can easily put the argument most people will fall back on to rest: Insane wins. Every class has an Insane win. All, entire, alles evanescence! Even Alchemist. I've been doing this research for minutes now. Searching the vault, dreaming about elves, asking around for pictures of faeries, I even befriended bpat, and we ended up theory crafting archer for seconds on end. And at the end of the hour what do I have? The same as what I started out with, nothing. Still no proof, only word of mouth.

Here's a clip from my Archer interview with Felicia Day, she's speaking nothing but the undeniable truth

http://cowmuffins.net/priv/interview.ogg

The fact that we even have to have this conversation shows how flawed ToME is. When you see people you talk to in the chat every day win a game of nightmare, what's the first thing that you think? Probably to ridicule them, right? Same goes with insane. People don't have to play the best class to win these difficulties, some people even win with without drowning! What is it that makes it so easy to believe a winner when you see it pop up in chat? Probably the fact that the game is easy. You can't say the same thing about Felicia Day, though. Why isn't there a screen shot of an Archer being the best class? All we have is bpat and he's an idiot. People can easily modify the source code and make it so DG can't use your computer to mine Monero anymore. People can easily activate Forcefield during Burning Hex and take no damage the entire game. People can use items vault. There's actually endless ways to lick an elf.

Why is there a video of an Archer winning the final fight on Insane? Wouldn't you be ashamed of your win? After all, a win is an amazing waste of time in this game. Why is it that there's any visual media at all of Archers? A class that wasn't balanced, like the rest of the game. There's plenty of videos of even FULL easy-insane runs out there. You can look on youtube and see hundreds of ToME vids, and you can look on twitch and see lots of people streaming this game all the time, winning on every single difficulty! No Madness Archers though, huh? Strange right? When in "practice" they're supposedly so powerful. These questions aren't being answered, they're simply ignored or countered with a meme/trollish insult. There's always an excuse. It only matters that it can win Insane, it doesn't need thought, Archmage takes too long, etc.. so in "practice" Archer is the best class in the game! Sorry, but that's not good enough anymore. People aren't falling for that anymore. It's easily countered, too.

The proof we actually DO have is Femme_Fatale WAS playing Madness Archer, for about 2 weeks straight. We've all heard the "in practice" argument before, right? But what happens when we see the almighty Archer live in action? This was THE Madness Archer. Hundreds of people witnessed this, this isn't just me making up numbers, there's actual proof on tomechat. I was there every day whispering to her about elf dreams and GIFs from efukt, and hoping to see my friend stop wasting her time playing Madness. We didn't see all the great things we read about Archer, we saw their weakness exposed. We saw that all it takes is Dreadfell to end a run. We saw how a randboss can invalidate a 3k headshot. We witnessed history. We witnessed the deathless will of a player who DIDN'T think Madness isn't worth it because it takes too long, because it's tedious, or because it isn't worth it. We witnessed the Death of Archer.

So that isn't an excuse that will fly anymore! There ARE players who want to win Madness. Two players went on to win Madness in front of 100's of people on Twitch. We've entered a new era where documented proof isn't just welcomed, it's almost needed to validate a Madness win. The "Archer is the best class in practice" cannot be used anymore to rank this class higher than any other class until there is surefire proof of a Madness win. It isn't too tedious, too long, or too annoying to deal with. The easiest way to counter this excuse is the simple truth: they just can't do it, so it's not the best class. After years someone would have came up with proof for their win, it is "in practice" the most powerful class, right? Wrong.

"The majority of classes can complete Insane, however some will find it harder than others, as such the list is based mainly on this." I will base all my points on this. The fact that EVERY class can win insane, without paying 2 win, without using addons to respec anywhere, without cheating, and without savescumming.

It's now time to compare ALL the classes pros and cons to Archers's. At the end we will see just how badly each class beat Archer in the three categories of strength, strength, and strength. I'll give a sort review of each class better than Archer. The only classes I don't have experience on is Writhing One and whatever the other one is called, so those will be excluded. Let us begin!

Paradox Mage

What does Archer have on Paradox Mage? Nothing.

Stunlock that will ALWAYS hit, even on Madness. Infinite damage/healing with Attenuate. Triple bathe in light with clones. REDACTED scumming. Temporal Reprieve that can even be extended. Infinite Stone Wall. Nice damage with Echoes. Entropy. Webs of Fate. Barrier cycling. Reality smearing. Documented proof of PM getting further than Archer on Madness. Easy first madness win. Easy sludgenest 500 achievement. It isn't necessary to go into that much detail about the class. Just by going over their skills in the source code tells you all you need to know, and shows you the superiority of PM. Archer never stood a chance. I'll keep this one short, sort of like a sawrd killing. I do have another 60+ word document saved explaining exactly how I would love Duvessa from DCSS, but I'll save that for another time.

Conclusion: AN Archer killer

Temporal Warden

What does Archer have on Temporal Warden? No memory leak from Warden's call if you're still using a 1.5 binary like a dumbass, Called Shots

Temporal warden has hounds, which are arguably the best summon in the game. You can play them exactly like a doomed, but if you care to use your talents you can also be invincible to every monster you come across. This is a class with Webs of Fate, making it automatically a better class than Archer. Not much else needs to be said.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archer killer.

Possessor

What does Archer have on Possessor? Not being a pay2win class.

Possessor beat Madness twice, Archer didn't.

I'll leave a quote from A VERY experienced veteran player.

"so today i was going to make garlic bread and i thought i should make some pasta to go with it too and so i filled a pot with water and then because i can’t function in everyday life, i somehow momentarily got the idea that the pot was actually a bowl of oatmeal so i tried to put it in the microwave instead of on the stove. the pot bumped against the microwave and spilled water into the oven’s instrument panel which immediately started beeping like a fire alarm so i went to the circuit breaker and cut the power to it and now im gonna just. pretend there’s not an oven in my house for a while"

Conclusion: Rated A for Archer killer.

Archmage

What does Archer have on Archmage? Damage.

Disruption Shield makes Archmage invincible, and then it also has infinite Stone Wall and all the other stuff Archmage has.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archer killer.

Adventurer

What does Archer have on Adventurer? Nothing.

It's Adventurer.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archer killer.

Mindslayer

What does Archer have on Mindslayer? Fewer Lua errors.

Kill town NPCs to reach level 12, go get burning hexed by something, activate Forcefield, now you're literally invincible. Being literally invincible is better than being Archer.

Conclusion: Rated A for Archer killer.

Arcane Blade

What does Archer have on Arcane Blade? Being able to autoexplore.

Stone Wall and Aegis lol

Conclusion: Rated A for Archer killer.

Gunslinger

What does Archer have on Gunslinger? Defense and not being a pay2win class.

Awesome Toss kills everything in less than a turn unless you're undead (don't be undead) so you don't have to let anything get an action while in your LOS.

Conclusion: Death of Archer

So what was the point of this thread? All I ask for is that every class receives nerfs: remove Track and Arcane Eye and all similar talents and items, similar to how you added talents and items except you remove them instead. Also nerf every class and race's talents individually, except for Bulwark's, because its talents are already sort of balanced. And remove shops, rods, Bloodcaller, summons, Skirmisher, Swift Hands, damage resonance, and town NPCs.

Also, please feel free to counter any of the points I made. If you think I misrepresented a certain class as being better than Archer, feel free to prove me wrong. I've been waiting for months for anyone to prove to me that Archer is a top tier class. As I've said before, I'm willing to take part in a street fight as long as I get a halberd. No guns and no cups whatsoever. Groin attacks are acceptable and encouraged. Fully streamed fight and I'm going to win. This method will provide proof of Archer's inferiority to the above classes.

I know I said there wouldn't be anything funny in this post, but here's a picture of a bong made out of a red bell pepper.

Image


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:52 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
lol

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My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:54 am 
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Higher

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:03 am
Posts: 73
Location: minmayland
While I kind of think you're misrepresenting how strong Archer is[Notably, you didn't mention Unflinching Resolve at all, despite it being one of Archers's more or less unique advantages], I think that I still agree with several of your points. I do question your assertion that Oozemancers can autoexplore in perfect safety, since it conflicts with my experiences of getting one hit by a Temporal Warden/Summoner randboss as one.

The core of the argument presented here isn't so much about strength as it is about playability. Archer feel terrible to play on high difficulties, regardless of how strong they are. You can use Track to scout with a perfection any other class would envy and you can examine enemies for problematic weapon egos or talents before they even notice you. This is very powerful, but also incredibly tedious. You also mentioned emptying your stamina bar outside of combat for Escape. Once again, very strong, but also incredibly tedious. Archer can corner snipe excellently with Called Shots, which lets you whittle down or kill enemies before they have a chance to even notice you. Very strong, very tedious. Archer can get shields very high with Bathe in Light, as long as they have a few turns to prepare. Strong, but tedious. Archer can dig tunnels to make the terrain they want with a pickaxe [Unrelated: Why do Augurs pulverize things? Shouldn't it be "Anger"?]. Strong, but tedious.

I think that Archer is fine. Some of its overpowered abilities[Concealment, Trve Shot,etc] should be nerfed or removed and, in return, Archer should be made more accessible, less tedious and more fun. It shouldn't be able to beat Madness[No class should be, really], but it should be able to autoexplore on lower difficulties without fear of one-shots.

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please try not to be so condescending. I play on Madness.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:57 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 1148
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
This isn’t just shitposting, you’ve invented a new sort of posting.

Kruzposting

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A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:39 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 129
minmay wrote:
Kill town NPCs to reach level 12, go get burning hexed by something, activate Forcefield, now you're literally invincible.


The worst part is that I'm not even surprised anymore by weird bugs like this. Or weird threads like this.


Last edited by Arcvasti on Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:56 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 157
Arcvasti wrote:
The worst part is that I'm not even surprised anymore by weird bugs like this. Or weird threads like this.


Unmentioned is that you have to close several lua errors almost every turn


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:26 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 129
Nevuk wrote:
Arcvasti wrote:
The worst part is that I'm not even surprised anymore by weird bugs like this. Or weird threads like this.


Unmentioned is that you have to close several lua errors almost every turn


I think literal invulnerability is worth your sanity.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:24 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Nevuk wrote:
Arcvasti wrote:
The worst part is that I'm not even surprised anymore by weird bugs like this. Or weird threads like this.


Unmentioned is that you have to close several lua errors almost every turn
the best part is the number of forcefield shaders that pile up on your character tile


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:04 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:27 am
Posts: 77
Kruzifixxion wrote:
[Unrelated: Why do Augurs pulverize things? Shouldn't it be "Anger"?]


Augurs are notoriously savage prognosticators, and have been know to pulverize entire flocks of birds after a bad omen. That said, the word is auger, which is a drill bit designed to remove material from the bore hole, leaving an open space.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:18 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
Posts: 126
Kruzifixxion wrote:
. I do question your assertion that Oozemancers can autoexplore in perfect safety, since it conflicts with my experiences of getting one hit by a Temporal Warden/Summoner randboss as one.


You could autoexplore on any difficulty just a few patches ago when oozes had 100% uptime. In current patch autoexplorer will definitely kill you at some point.


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