ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:39 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Stone Warden is #31.
Cursed is weaker than #35 (revealing that it is #36).

comrade raoul wrote:
(And I have to say, the difference between this tier list and, say, your DCSS spell guide seems somehow very telling. But I don't know whether it says more about the difference between the two games, between the two communities, or you.)
top tier vagueposting


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:15 am 
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Higher

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:42 pm
Posts: 64
ok, more low-hanging fruit:

doombringer is #34
solipsist is #34


Last edited by comrade raoul on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:16 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5676
Nevuk wrote:
Also, kind of impressive that even with all the add-on classes 4 of the top 5 are default (even if you just ignore adventurer)

All of those addon classes are made by people who care about balance I guess.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:18 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Doombringer is #35.
Solipsist is #34.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:20 am 
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Higher

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:42 pm
Posts: 64
arcanist is #12
sun paladin is #21
necromancer is #25


Last edited by comrade raoul on Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:21 am 
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Higher

Joined: Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:42 pm
Posts: 64
doomed is #32


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:57 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
That reveals the whole list, well done! The decrypted rationale has been added to the second post. Now everyone argue about the rankings.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:07 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5676
Wow, that is a few rather harsh comments directed at me... :cry:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:35 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
lol, well if it's any consolation arcanist and elementist are still more fun than actual Archmage :P


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5676
Archmage unfortunately relies too much on Disruption Shield (Block all damage and recover mana while having a very avoidable downside!) and Stonewall (Enemies can't even attempt to attack anymore!). I really don't want to make something of similar brokenness, and its hard to make it interesting as well.

Arcanist and Elementist were my first addon classes and the original versions were terribad.
Arcanist does have some good things with unlocked Temporal and a potential 1000000 damage nova from Elixir of Invulnerability + Shield Overload. I have redesigned the new categories once, but they are still a bit incoherent.
Elementist is just bad. I was writing a new design about a year ago, but the drive it was on died and that left me heart-broken. Also, I couldn't remember what half of the talents were...

You also have no idea how much of a bug nightmare Chant Acolyte was! :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
It's not Chant Acolyte that causes the problem (well, it causes some problems but not any that are relevant to the ranking), it's Chant Adept. Making any change in the levelup screen resets your sustains, so it resets your Chant, so it cures your debuffs, without putting anything on cooldown. Couple that with the fact that Chants are instant, and it pretty much means you become immune to detrimental effects at level 9, unless something manages to put the appropriate Chant on cooldown. Saw Wheels has the same problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:42 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
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Sorry, got talent names mixed up. I meant Chant Adept.
The bloody thing was supposed to be fixed to not do that, but it still does!

It is amazing how something that should be a simple idea can suddenly turn out to be a horrible nightmare. XD

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:51 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Well if it's any consolation I harass Shibari daily about fixing it


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:18 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:39 pm
Posts: 129
Quote:
>Adventurer

Invincibility combos still exist


Care to give some examples? I'm having trouble thinking of category combinations that are noticeably better then what Possessor can get with the right bodies.

Quote:
>Demonologist

-Circular Link of Pain-


That's horrifying.

Quote:
>Harbinger


Where would you put v 1.00 Harbingers, which had Blazing Barrage + the Cremate version which made enemies explode for %max life damage?

Quote:
>Shadowblade

Ambuscade can still be abused, it just takes longer now. That's my entire justification for putting Shadowblade this high. You can use items during Shadow Veil but it's probably still not something you'll actually cast.


I rolled up a dev mode shadowblade to theorycraft how to abuse Ambuscade and discovered that you can have your shadow Time Prison your real body for the duration of Ambuscade. You still have to beat your own spell save, but that's not that hard for a class with Shadow Cunning and you can always just set up the procedure behind a corner. Is this what you were talking about, or is it something simpler/more weird and buggy?

Quote:
>Wyrmic

Lightning Speed, Burrow, Ice Wall, and Dissolve are excellent, as everyone knows by now. But just having four excellent talents doesn't make a good class. Wyrmic just has four excellent talents. And other classes can get one of them from a mindstar...


Static Field does %hp damage, which seems pretty busted. So five excellent talents.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:25 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
Arcvasti wrote:
Where would you put v 1.00 Harbingers, which had Blazing Barrage + the Cremate version which made enemies explode for %max life damage?
They also had the broken slow, so maybe a bit below PM? Kind of the same situation as Gunslinger where you have effectively infinity damage but dying before you can get it off is still a potential problem.
Arcvasti wrote:
I rolled up a dev mode shadowblade to theorycraft how to abuse Ambuscade and discovered that you can have your shadow Time Prison your real body for the duration of Ambuscade. You still have to beat your own spell save, but that's not that hard for a class with Shadow Cunning and you can always just set up the procedure behind a corner. Is this what you were talking about, or is it something simpler/more weird and buggy?
There are a lot of goofy things you can do, but the simplest is that the old technique of Ambuscade + move the shadow far away + kamikaze attack still works. You just get fewer turns now and can't use teleport now, but there are plenty of other ways to put the shadow on the other side of the level, most noticeably Probability Travel.
Arcvasti wrote:
Static Field does %hp damage, which seems pretty busted. So five excellent talents.
I don't think Static Field is very good. The damage is typically less than I'd get from a bump attack. It's decent to open against elite bosses since rank life adjustment gives them such large HP pools, but that's about it. (And yeah, there's the AAD abuse with Acera but there are like 30 classes that are better at AAD abuse and you also have to get to level 30 to do it.)


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