ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Higher

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ZyZ wrote:
Cathbald wrote:
I feel like their damage is too low for them to be fast, their mobility/defense too poor to get reckless, and their kit to clunky to be easy. I know some of it is subjective and the class just doesn't do it for me andbut apparently click very well with you but trying to ignore that i still can't put them higher than C tier. For example shadowblade is just plain better and while not easy it's not as bad as solip, doomed can reduce ennemy damage to 0 and shadows deal more damage than solip, rogue has lots of tools for massive damage/utility, corr/reaver are more straight forward and deal massive amounts of damage making them better imo (though they do hugely lack in mobility...).


I mean, no offense, but saying that solipsist has low damage is absurd. You played it but you don't know what makes it tick.

1) Distortion explosion can crit. Afaik it's the only offensive talent in game that can double crit (base damage then explosion damage) thus with 150% crit power damage multiplier is x2.25 (not counting 1.5x modifier from explosion). Madness gear quality allows you consistently go to 300-450% crit power . 400% crit power = x16 damage multiplier. 500% crit power = x25 damage multiplier etc. Low tooltip damage is partially true only for <200% crit power / low crit chance characters.
2) Dreamscape can crit. All damage modifiers can be multiplied by crit power ie 100% phys damage is coverted to 400% phys damage. All different talent bonuses stack with dreamscape bonus thus 50k aoe distortion bolts are possible. Most boss / rare rank endgame have less than 70k life so dreamscape not only allows you to reset cooldowns but you can actually go for kill if mob has less hp than 1-2 full crit distortion bolts dmg
3) Many people mentioned it but i'll repeat it anyway. Windtouched Speed reduce talent cooldown by at least 1 turn and obviously you benefit from it the most when your core talents have low cooldown. With this prodigy mindsear becomes 1 turn cooldown, distortion bolts 2 turns cooldown. Add eye of the tigger and you will be able to cast BOTH mind sear and distortion bolt each turn every turn assuming you have enough global speed / mind speed to cast two talents each turn. Imho this is most offensive setup for solipsist. Run game in debug mode, set mindcrit to 100, crit power to 300 and see for yourself.
4) You can remove regeneration effect with distortion ravage

In general crit power synergize well with both defensive and offensive talents (resonance field, inner demons, dismissal, though forms etc) and imho is the most important thing to focus late game. Afaik when people create tier lists they focus on broken things like unstoppable, wall of stone, dot damage, hitting through walls etc. Im not sure why solipsist would be any different. It can face tank madness (like literally stand and wait for 1k tooltip freeze that is reduced to almost 0) and has enough damage single target and aoe damage to clear prides on madness. This is something that can't be said about fe oozemancer which struggle with every single rare with regeneration / healing.


There's no such thing as "Madness Quality gear"

I love when people just throw out numbers without understanding the system

theres no material tiers past 5, all that's going up is item level and power point pool, you're not gonna do much better. Not to mention the fact that Solip has NEVER won madness, what you're doing is only theorycrafting, while this list is based on players actually playing & winning the class. Only Possessor has won Madness so bringing it into discussion of this tier list is truly irrelevant. In insane which every player & class can win because it's actually balanced and meant to be completed. Solip is only a decent class with low damage. Looking at all the classes, at least it can be argued that Solip is better than Bulwark, Arcane Blade, Skirmisher, Archmage, Alchemist, Necromancer, Summoner, Reaver, Corruptor, and Gunslinger. Which makes them better than most

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please try not to be so condescending. I play on Madness.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
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Kruzifixxion wrote:

There's no such thing as "Madness Quality gear"

I love when people just throw out numbers without understanding the system

theres no material tiers past 5, all that's going up is item level and power point pool, you're not gonna do much better.


Correct, max material is level 5 but dungeon level on madness is much higher later on. For example you can find 15% crit reduction tier 5 pants early on but around east ego modifiers will go higher ie you can expect more than 15% reduction from same ego. At some point dungeon level will be so high that items will have "enough points" to roll "telepathy: all" on items or multiple greater egos.


Last edited by ZyZ on Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
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Kruzifixxion wrote:
ZyZ wrote:
Not to mention the fact that Solip has NEVER won madness, what you're doing is only theorycrafting, while this list is based on players actually playing & winning the class. Only Possessor has won Madness so bringing it into discussion of this tier list is truly irrelevant.


https://te4.org/characters/104175/tome/ ... cf4922ad56

I actually play madness and when i say you can reach and clear pride(s) i mean it because i've done it before. On the other hand most classes that are rated above solipisit are not played on madness at all and when people try it they give up early on (often before master). List in this thread is just an opinion and that's ok but i urge you to give solipist a shot. It's not as bad as you think it is :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:03 am
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Location: minmayland
ZyZ wrote:
Kruzifixxion wrote:
ZyZ wrote:
Not to mention the fact that Solip has NEVER won madness, what you're doing is only theorycrafting, while this list is based on players actually playing & winning the class. Only Possessor has won Madness so bringing it into discussion of this tier list is truly irrelevant.


https://te4.org/characters/104175/tome/ ... cf4922ad56

I actually play madness and when i say you can reach and clear pride(s) i mean it because i've done it before. On the other hand most classes that are rated above solipisit are not played on madness at all and when people try it they give up early on (often before master). List in this thread is just an opinion and that's ok but i urge you to give solipist a shot. It's not as bad as you think it is :-)


Yeah but Madness is irrelevant becuz the only legit winners are on Possessor which outclasses every class in the game so bringing Madness into the equation doesn't help much it's just theorycrafting like Mex's tier list

and I did play Solip last week https://te4.org/characters/226971/tome/ ... 56c0ef581d it's not bad but it has the problem all other mages do, it deals 0 dmg

even with a 1 cd mindsear hitting for 2k each turn its still really low compared to phys classes

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please try not to be so condescending. I play on Madness.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:49 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
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Quote:
1) Distortion explosion can crit. Afaik it's the only offensive talent in game that can double crit (base damage then explosion damage) thus with 150% crit power damage multiplier is x2.25 (not counting 1.5x modifier from explosion). Madness gear quality allows you consistently go to 300-450% crit power . 400% crit power = x16 damage multiplier. 500% crit power = x25 damage multiplier etc. Low tooltip damage is partially true only for <200% crit power / low crit chance characters.


Hey man, I just wanted to say thank you for such a detailed bug report, I already got shibari to fix it in the local git branch.
https://git.net-core.org/tome/t-engine4 ... quests/487

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A little bit of a starters guide written by yours truly here.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
Posts: 126
Micbran wrote:
Quote:
1) Distortion explosion can crit. Afaik it's the only offensive talent in game that can double crit (base damage then explosion damage) thus with 150% crit power damage multiplier is x2.25 (not counting 1.5x modifier from explosion). Madness gear quality allows you consistently go to 300-450% crit power . 400% crit power = x16 damage multiplier. 500% crit power = x25 damage multiplier etc. Low tooltip damage is partially true only for <200% crit power / low crit chance characters.


Hey man, I just wanted to say thank you for such a detailed bug report, I already got shibari to fix it in the local git branch.
https://git.net-core.org/tome/t-engine4 ... quests/487


After "fix" class will be still playable below madness. It's curious that such problems are corrected almost immediately but problems with inner demons that cause game to become unresponsive (unable to save game / go to main menu etc) last for years. Different priorities i guess :-)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:19 am
Posts: 1148
Location: Yeehaw, pardner
ZyZ wrote:
Micbran wrote:
Quote:
1) Distortion explosion can crit. Afaik it's the only offensive talent in game that can double crit (base damage then explosion damage) thus with 150% crit power damage multiplier is x2.25 (not counting 1.5x modifier from explosion). Madness gear quality allows you consistently go to 300-450% crit power . 400% crit power = x16 damage multiplier. 500% crit power = x25 damage multiplier etc. Low tooltip damage is partially true only for <200% crit power / low crit chance characters.


Hey man, I just wanted to say thank you for such a detailed bug report, I already got shibari to fix it in the local git branch.
https://git.net-core.org/tome/t-engine4 ... quests/487


After "fix" class will be still playable below madness. It's curious that such problems are corrected almost immediately but problems with inner demons that cause game to become unresponsive (unable to save game / go to main menu etc) last for years. Different priorities i guess :-)


if you open up the commit, you can see that this bugfix was a matter of changing one line. The ID bug (which i personally have never encountered, though I doubt I've played solip as much as you) could require mucking around in the engine or how the game handles cloning entities which is in a wholly different place than just "the inner demons talent."

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 36
ZyZ wrote:
Micbran wrote:
Quote:
1) Distortion explosion can crit. Afaik it's the only offensive talent in game that can double crit (base damage then explosion damage) thus with 150% crit power damage multiplier is x2.25 (not counting 1.5x modifier from explosion). Madness gear quality allows you consistently go to 300-450% crit power . 400% crit power = x16 damage multiplier. 500% crit power = x25 damage multiplier etc. Low tooltip damage is partially true only for <200% crit power / low crit chance characters.


Hey man, I just wanted to say thank you for such a detailed bug report, I already got shibari to fix it in the local git branch.
https://git.net-core.org/tome/t-engine4 ... quests/487


After "fix" class will be still playable below madness. It's curious that such problems are corrected almost immediately but problems with inner demons that cause game to become unresponsive (unable to save game / go to main menu etc) last for years. Different priorities i guess :-)

It was fixed immediately because he poked me about it and I happened to be curious if it was true. It was also simple. I don't know what bug you are referring to with Inner Demons but if its the major memory leak or one of the clone bugs those are hopefully fixed.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:56 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 324
I have some sympathy, Zyz... I once wrote a guide around a particular playstyle that was apparently not dev-approved, then the next game build purposely wrote it out of existence in response to the flamewar the guide started. (Note: the game was not Tome4.)

Tier list doesn’t say D is Insane unviable, just bad and tedious, while C is potentially strong but tedious. Solipsist, where you have to spend a bunch of talent points and potentially a character point to make their titular talent tree an advantage rather than a disadvantage, where the not-terribly rare sleep immunity on an enemy might invalidate between a quarter and a half of your points (and perhaps 75% of Solipsist’s sleep-master niche), where your build isn’t really coming together cleanly until you get Fungus, is at the very least significantly tedious. Also, there are other classes that can be plenty powerful when played tedium-free but also allow optional tedium with for hugely powerful results (e.g. Fungal Blood/Slime Roots/Nature’s Balance/Ancestral Life turn-gain Oozemancer). Personal loyalty to a class aside, I hope we can agree that Solipsist isn’t in the same faceroll/good from start to finish category.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:22 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
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Shibari wrote:
It was fixed immediately because he poked me about it and I happened to be curious if it was true. It was also simple. I don't know what bug you are referring to with Inner Demons but if its the major memory leak or one of the clone bugs those are hopefully fixed.


I was referring to viewtopic.php?f=42&t=48323 hopefully bug is related to recent fixes .Today i've created another bug thread about mindstars viewtopic.php?f=42&t=48556 Afaik they never worked correctly


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:53 am 
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Uruivellas

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The Archmage sucks meme needs to die. Archmage has no business being outside the top two tiers. Otherwise this list is mostly fine aside from Cursed being in bottom tier when it should be lower-mid.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:14 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:46 pm
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A lot happened here, huh. Might try solip with distortion bolt before the fix is pushed, just to see big numbers. Not sure how I'm gonna survive until I get the gear for it though, which pretty much sums up all my solip runs. At the very least this discussion fixed one bug so yay for making a difference.

Bpat, AM is tedious. I need to try arcane build for better damage, maybe this way it'd be higher, but i'm serious when i say i find it easier/faster to advance until dreadfell as necro. Beyond dreadfell i can't say because my AM never reached the east unlike my necros. Cursed lower mid-tier could be debatable, what are your reasons?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:46 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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I found Solipsist to be super tanky with the Feedback category.
Biofeedback slowly heals you after you take damage, which combined with Resonance Field halving all damage means you last a while as long as you aren't nuked.
Conversion is also a pretty decent heal with psi recovery.

Instant Healing, Regen and a damage shield, its like a Psionic version of Light.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:09 pm 
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Cornac

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I did a solipsist nightmare roguelike run recently, so maybe not all of what worked for me works on insane, but it seemed decently strong. The big thing with solipsist is that you have to do some weird things if you really want it to shine, as opposed to just following the "meta" of more straightforward classes. In particular, pumping mental save to stupid levels is actually useful, since covers for other the saves and provides an extra chance of flat damage reduction with the solipsism. Even if you won't be able to save against everything with that, you can shrug off most of the effects from trash that would otherwise overwhelm your limited number of cleanses that you need when the big nasties put you to the test. I ran a cornac and did overkill on stacking flat damage reduction type effects, like forge shield, antimagic shield, resonance shield and dismissal, and felt very tanky along with other defenses like resolve. There's the concerns of the big damage spike pushing you into solipsism slow and such, but with the stacked layers of defense that only happened a couple times that I can remember, and I don't think I was in a genuine death close call those time and was able to quickly heal back up to high speed.

Distortion really is the sleeper hit tree, and not just because of the distortion bolt bug. Distortion wave is nice and straightforward with the knockback cone with the kicker stun. Ravage is a physical effect and sustain stripping machine, though doesn't work for that on the spine of the world bosses, which is admittedly very annoying. Maelstrom is a great way to keep enemies where you want them to be, and the earlier complaints can be mitigated. Enemies with movement skills might be able to get out of the maelstrom, but they aren't smart enough to stay out if pushed or led back in after they break out. And if there's a nasty ranged enemy that you really don't want to deal with right now, you can plop down a maelstrom and move around the corner or behind a wall. A lot of them will waste turns trying to path and walk towards you then just be pulled back towards the center. Maybe not as straightfoward as using one of the wall building talents, but it often works pretty well in practice against the less than brilliant AI.

I did the forge hammer tree too, not sure how I feel about it entirely due to a bunch of the skills putting you in melee range, but it does do pretty good damage and gives a stun source. It's hits a lot harder if you somehow can fish up counterstrike debuffs with the forge shield.

My solipsist is at the slime caves at the moment, and I was thinking about seeing how far I could push it to really put it to the test, but had a crash a little way in that made me put it on the back burner. I beat Atamathon previously, but burned a blood of life due to improper execution at first, so "doable but not easy" on him would suggest something above bottom tier.

PS you want to categorize your usage sleep, and not just think of it only as CC and run skill on solipsist. Solipsist has a couple of boosts to damage against slept or insomniaed enemies, so sometimes you'll just sleep like a more potent daze, blast the hell out of them right after, and be able to sleep them again a couple turns later. Insomnia only really becomes a blocker if you don't put points into the sandman talent and/or try to stretch the sleep out for a long time. If you do sleep and blast cycles, then insomnia won't stack high and dissipate quickly, though this obviously works a lot better with talent cooldown reduction procs, like from mnemonic and eye of the tiger. The other style is if you are using inner demons, then you want a big fat slumber and let them nap peacefully as long as you can get away with while their angry clone factory does its work.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
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HousePet wrote:
I found Solipsist to be super tanky with the Feedback category.
Biofeedback slowly heals you after you take damage, which combined with Resonance Field halving all damage means you last a while as long as you aren't nuked.
Conversion is also a pretty decent heal with psi recovery.

Instant Healing, Regen and a damage shield, its like a Psionic version of Light.


This is really the crux of everything that I was getting at. Feedback is THE defensive talent tree for Solipsist. Not even Solipsism approaches the kind of situational saves that Feedback gives you - your thoughtforms give you feedback so you can safely have it at 100 every fight without ever having been hit, Biofeedback gives you a constant HP and Psi trickle refill, if you ARE going to be hit Resonance Field absorbs 50% of damage so that you still have a chance to Dismissal anything that gets past it and the shield lasts way longer, Amplification is slightly better than tax at 1 point, and Conversion is an at-will full reset of an entire fight. Use conversion and you'll be at full health and psi afterward, with the appropriate speed boosts, guaranteed. At least as a Yeek Solipsist that I'm currently playing to prove a point, by TL2 Conversion was giving me enough raw HP heals to fill my HP and Psi to full, without even taking into account the resource heals. It was enough to fill my whole health bar 2-3 times over by TL4.

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