ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
Posts: 69
Table of Contents:
- The Good (aka neat uses for this skill)
- The Bad (exploits possible with this skill)
- The Ugly (bugs)

After Snarvid made several mentions about the uses and weird bugs of Projection in his Possessor guide (go look at it, it's amazing), I started experimenting a little. Some of the things mentioned here are discovered by him, specifically the first bug with Fearscape, the exploit with Psionic Minion, the Summon interaction and the part about doubling down on some skills.

The Good
Projection basically clones your character, removing certain skills and making others unavailable in the process.
Any skill that was on cooldown when using Projection will be on cooldown, and you will have the same resources.
But nothing except damage taken is transferred back to your body.
This allows for several things:

First, you can double down on important/high cooldown/very useful skills.
For example, this allows you to use Yeeks Dominant Will or Wayist twice.
Other neat ideas to use with this: Track, any combat skill where the stun is NOT directly attached to the damage (so no Flameshock), summons (see below).

While you may not deal damage in this form, your summons (mostly) still do, meaning summoning skills are very effective.
To be precise about summons (those that I have tested):
- Summoners summons work just fine. Haven't tested yet if you can use Summon Control on them, but my bet is on no.
- Doomed Shadows slowly spawn from your projection (or quickly if you just use Focus Shadows), and work as normal - but vanish when the projection ends (actually, one turn after that).
- Temporal Fugue: This one is weird, but working as intended imo. Basically, it summons invisible clones that deal no damage. When the projection vanishes, these two stay (for as long as their time limit says), but the damage-sharing will only be between the two of them.
- Necrotic minions: Working as intended. The minions are summoned correctly, but they will decay quickly when Projection ends, since they now lack the Necrotic Aura of their summoner.
- Forgery of Haze: It creates a working Forgery, but that one sadly does not deal any damage. And since it it blissfully unaware of that, the clone is sometimes useless.
The Summon skill (from NPCs), Bind Demon and golems are mentioned later on, as these can lead to some exploits.

Another useful interaction is that you can Time Prison your "original" body. If you do this, no matter how much damage you take, it isn't transferred back to your body, allowing you to scout with ease.
Last but not least, you can, if you have unused skill points, learn talents as the projection. This means you're not learning them with your main body (and not spending the points either), allowing you to learn a crucial skill needed right now (that probably isn't needed later)

The Morally Grey: The Infernal Legion of (Inflatable) Idiots
Skills required: Projection, Mind Link, a way to gain souls, Animus Purge, Mental Tyranny, Through the Crowd (recommended, but not needed)
Step 1: Find a suitable target (not unique or boss, not instakill immune)
Step 2: Proceed to bring target to very low health
Step 3: Use Projection, then Mind Link the target
Step 4: Use Animus Purge on the target (Mental Tyranny + Mind Link is needed to actually make the purge do damage, so it can "kill" its target.)

If done correctly, you should now have a husk, just like the normal ones created by Animus Purge... until the projection ends.
At this point, the husk will still be controllable, but count its master as dead, making Self-Destruct usable. If left to its own devices, it will attempt to reach the last location of the projection.

Step 5: Leave the level. Before doing this step, you may repeat steps 1-4 as many times as wanted.

Congratulations! You are now the proud owner of a small army of undead husks. They are not controllable anymore (except for setting leash distance), but will now follow you and fight for you.
They are still husks though, meaning they cannot be healed.

I have listed this interaction as morally grey, even though it technically is an exploit, because you have to pretty much devote at least half your build to it.

Skills required: Summon (from possessing an enemy with this talent), Projection. Credit for this one goes to Snarvid.
Step 1: Use Projection
Step 2: Use Summon

And here we have allies... and no Summoning Destabilisation on ourselves.

Also listed as grey, since you could also just wait the destabilisation out.

The Bad
Demons
Using Bind Demon while in Projection correctly summons the demon... without your main body actually summoning it.
This means free demon... with an error attached if Projection ends before the demons summoning timer. (The game is trying to find the inventory the demon is supposed to go back into, but can't.)
The error is harmless, and does not have any consequences that I noticed.

Golems
Most skills involving your golem are unusable at first, since apparently the projection doesn't have a golem. But you can use Supercharge Golem... and it spawns a perfect copy of your golem... with a different health value, of course, but that is to be expected.
These additional golems stay when Projection ends, but cannot be interacted with, are (skill- and equipment-wise) a perfect copy of your "main" golem (when the Projection was cast, iirc, might also be when the Supercharge was cast), but will walk towards the projections last known location and stay there unless they spot an enemy.
They also stay on the level they were "created", meaning they do not come with you when you change levels, but they will still be there when you come back.

Psionic minions
As Snarvid mentions in the Possessor guide, you can use Psionic Minion while using Projection, leading to a free (although timed) minion, since the body isn't consumed (at least the "main body's body" isn't).
EDIT: This was apparently discovered by fiske. Thanks for pointing that out, Snarvid.

Duplicated Weapons (really big exploit)
Using Projection and then using Cursed Sentry or Weapon Automaton on a weapon of your choice creates a duplicate of the weapon, since it is still in your main characters inventory, but will drop on the ground when the sentry/automaton ends.
Since you can also pick prodigies wile projecting, this can be used to get Telos Spire of Power and Legacy of the Naloren without actually picking the corresponding prodigy.

The (B)Ugly
The First Fearscape (discovered by Snarvid)
Step 1: Use Projection
Step 2: Fearscape an enemy
Step 3: Let Projection time out

If done correctly, weird stuff happens and I can't explain how, what or why. I have no idea what is actually happening here, go look at the corresponding bug report thread...


Whose Fearscape Is This? (also works with Dreamscape (confirmed) and maybe Temporal Reprieve)
Step 1: Use Fearscape on an enemy
Step 2: Use Projection
Step 3: End the Fearscape while controlling the projection

Well... you are stuck now. In a black nothingness that is the world map, meaning you can't use skills. You also can't teleport (devmode), since you apparently still are a projection.
Do not attempt this on a serious character. I'm not even sure if Stunt himself could fix this.

Thank you all for reading, and may you have fun with this skill (and try to not break the game too much)!


Last edited by Erenion on Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
Very excited about this topic because it's so weird, and thanks for the recommendation on the guide. I should point out, however, that brand new user fiske apparently joined the forums in order to share the projection+psionic minion trick, so that wasn't my discovery. I just extrapolated off that to discover other tricks (the Summon skill on monsters, Summoner + Frantic Summoning, Tinker Summons, a few others). Good catch on Yeek specific stuff, BTW, might drive them up in the rankings (especially if the reliance on drowning on Insane+ ends and their awkward start without drowning is de-awkwarded).

It's just about my favorite thing when someone shows me a new use for a skill that I had written off as goofy or useless, part of why I like LCGs/TCGs, and always a treat in Tome!

My big two I'm still wondering about are: Forgery of Haze (although your Temporal Fugue tests suggest it won't do any damage) and Shadowblade's Ambuscade talent (which I have found on a few randBosses and now wonder about whether you can project->shadow... would probably be especially good in conjunction with the Yeek skills you pointed out, x3 Dominate Will and x3 Wayist in a single combat sounds fun).

Also - with Temporal Fugue / Forgery, would the projections know they can't do damage and act accordingly or not?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
Posts: 69
Code:
      for i = 1, 10 do
         m:unlearnTalent(m.T_AMBUSCADE)   -- no recurssive projections
         m:unlearnTalent(m.T_PROJECTION)      
         m:unlearnTalent(m.T_THOUGHT_FORMS)
      end


Sadly, as the comment in the code says, the game does not like recursive projections.

Also, please do not remove instakill immunity from yourself via console, activate Projection and then try to Animus Purge yourself, it crashes the game...

EDIT: Ok, Forgery of Haze works, but since you can't control Forgery, there are no skill chains here. And Forgery does not deal damage, similar to Fugue.
And no, clones you create while projecting do not appear to be aware of the fact that they hit for exactly nothing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
Bummer about the inability to Matryoshka doll your projections. You can, of course, still do them serially and therefore still hit triple Dominate Will->Wayist, but not quad them.

For your Animus Purge... ok, but what about if you first clone yourself through Projection->Fearscape and only THEN Animus Purge the OTHER you? For science!

E: Sorry, I often edit posts and forget to note that I'm doing it, I'm a slow thinker and virtually every post I make can be made better once I view it in the thread context.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
Posts: 69
One science later:
It still crashes, however, you actually need to deal the killing blow with Purge. If that is not the case, then you simply deal a bunch of darkness damage.
That might be the case for purging oneself via projection as well, I didn't test that that much.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
Erenion wrote:
One science later:
It still crashes, however, you actually need to deal the killing blow with Purge. If that is not the case, then you simply deal a bunch of darkness damage.
That might be the case for purging oneself via projection as well, I didn't test that that much.


Ah, well, no ability to go onto Exploration mode and create an army of zombie you's.

But look at the rich harvest of science!

Given that the Fearscape-created other you seems to click on and off sustains as you do, there *might* be razor-thin edge-case applications to creating Doomed or Temporal Warden copies of yourself and having additional Shadows or Temporal Hounds wandering around. Unless it counts the copy of you as you so much that you share a single max size minion pool.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
If you want to engage in some serious silliness, you can also leave a Prodigy unchosen and pick prodigies on the fly for your Projection. Blighted Summoning and Range Amplification device are perhaps the most obvious ones, and Mental Tyranny + Mind Link isn't bad either. Legacy of the Naloren *might* let you chat with Slasul to get the Trident, what would happen when the projection vanished is anyone's guess. Secrets of Telos likewise. Revisionist History has potential, and there's probably a Thoughtcaster + Vital Shot + Mind Link combo in there somewhere. Temporal Form gives you those anomalies on demand, might be fun. Finally, Worldly Knowledge lets you pick up a whole additional skill tree to invest points in, although you made need to make sure you're in a body with Mana already in order to use it.

None of them are all that practical, unless the Trident or Staff stick around.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:09 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:07 pm
Posts: 42
Just tested, staff and trident don't stay normally, BUT, if you use projection, get the item, use cursed sentry on it (requires level 5), it will drop to the ground and stay there. This can actually copy any weapon, so with a telekinetic slot it could be very powerful.

Edit: Also, using the first fearscape bug to die on the eidolon plane sends you do a different eidolon plane, and if you ask to be sent back, you end up on the original eidolon plane with a copy
Edit2: For some reason the second fearscape bug acts really weird from the eidolon plane. If you use fearscape on The Eidolon, you die in a really strange way:
"Projection of player deactivates Fearscape.
You feel a surge of power as a powerful creature falls nearby.
You are brought back from the Fearscape!
You feel a surge of power as a powerful creature falls nearby.
Character control switched back to player.
You are brought back from the Fearscape!
player the level 12 cornac adventurer was battered to death by an unknown on level 1 of Trollmire."
Pretty much the same thing happens if you fearscape a summon instead of The Eidolon, except a few of the messages are out of order and the summon disappears (I did it on an alchemist golem, and the golem was shown at mostly full health on the top of the screen, but wasn't in the eidolon plane or the level I died on)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:44 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:02 am
Posts: 503
Pisastrish wrote:
Just tested, staff and trident don't stay normally, BUT, if you use projection, get the item, use cursed sentry on it (requires level 5), it will drop to the ground and stay there. This can actually copy any weapon, so with a telekinetic slot it could be very powerful.
Isn't there a glove tinker that duplicates Cursed Sentry? Could you do the same thing with that?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:15 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:07 pm
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Not sure if this was pointed out yet, but temporal fugue's summons can be directly controlled, so projection->temp fugue->summon->switch to clone x2->summon x2->ambuscade->temp fugue->summon->switch to clone x2->summon*2->switch to base->summon gets you 7 summons in a row
Edit: Unless you're only using instant casts though you probably want temporal fugue maxed/global speed (and apparently temporal clones can't use timestop, otherwise that would be amazing)


Last edited by Pisastrish on Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:43 am 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
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After a quick test: Yes, it works with Weapon Automaton, although that can only dupe one-handed melee weapons that aren't mindstars or staves.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
Great stuff here. I've linked to this thread out of the Projection portion of the possessor guide, as there's waaaaay to much to cover under the discussion of the skill without completely derailing the guide.

Pisatrish, we should be able to get another 2 off fugue on the base body, right? (I'm pre coffee so I might be missing it.). But good catch that projection and ambuscade don't rule out fugue.

Also, with every copy of your character Yeek gets that much better and imo gains the most practical ability to use this in combat (27 Yeek Mindslayers and counting...)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:07 pm
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Ah, yeah, forgot about that. This makes yeek AMAZING since they have one of the only instant summons, plus dominate AND a native speed boost. Does sound like somewhat tedious gameplay though.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
Posts: 69
Pisastrish wrote:
Ah, yeah, forgot about that. This makes yeek AMAZING since they have one of the only instant summons, plus dominate AND a native speed boost. Does sound like somewhat tedious gameplay though.

Don't forget Thaloren and their Nature's Pride, that one is also an instant speed summon.

Also, I tested Legacy... and it works, you can get it without ever picking the prodigy (you lose out on the mastery points though).
However, you can only do this once, Slasul won't give you the trident twice.
This isn't the case with Telos Spire of Power, you can make an infinite amount of those by picking the prodigy while projecting, then Cursed Sentrying the staff. (not needed, if you have one you can already dupe it)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
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I think I overlooked Thalore due to coming at it from the Tinker Possessor+Projection mindset, where Yeek is better for experience reasons (-15% xp vs. +35% giving you much better access to schematics even if both take Tinkers at 36), for Dominant Will still working with Projections while Wrath of the Woods will mostly waste its offensive component, and the negligible impact of the two races' different life point totals. But as many of the applications in this thread go well beyond what's possible for a Possessor (don't think I've ever seen Cursed Sentry on a character) it's definitely good to point out other racial choices.

On that note, we should add the benefits of item duplicating for Adventurers borrowing Alchemist skills (as well as possibly the upcoming Writhing Ones), as you might as well carry Sawrd, TK-wield a second, and give a third to your golem. In for an exploit-penny, in for an exploit-pound...

For non-Possessors, Swift Hands might be a very valuable combination with the item duplication tricks, as many weapons have powerful single-use abilities and being able to cycle rapidly through many of these in succession could definitely leave a mark. I'm thinking mostly of artifact mindstars, although I don't know if that can be duplicated by Cursed Sentry - Nexus of the Way or Eyal's Will in rapid succession, for example.

Does Slasul put the Trident in your inventory even if you talk to him via the Projection? Drop it on the ground? I've never taken Legacy of the Naloren, it's probably worth considering on a Possessor (since some hosts have Exotic Weapon skills).


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