ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:21 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 742
Psyshot should easily be tier A, since it's better than Sawbutcher which is also tier A. Sawbutcher's damage is overkill and Psyshot is better in every other aspect while still dealing plenty of damage. Also Doomed in tier C is ranked way too low, it is so much better than everything in tier C and also definitely better than classes like Summoner, Corruptor, and Stone Warden. I'm not sure why everyone still thinks Doomed is bad when it's incredibly good at staying alive and despite its low damage it can still hold up fairly well in High Peak on Insane as long as it can beat mind saves.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 12:39 am
Posts: 41
Bodhi wrote:
ster wrote:
Shaidyn wrote:
I feel sad because I've now learned that all of my wins have come from top tier classes.

Time to set myself a challenge.

The only difference between top and low tiers are the amount of tedium you need to win with them. Except archmage.

Strongly disagree. A win isn't legitimate unless it's with a C tier class or (ideally) lower.


Every win is legitimate as long you play according to the rules (not considering mods)... class and race do not magically nullify all of your effort.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:27 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:29 am
Posts: 178
moonpie wrote:
Bodhi wrote:
ster wrote:
The only difference between top and low tiers are the amount of tedium you need to win with them. Except archmage.

Strongly disagree. A win isn't legitimate unless it's with a C tier class or (ideally) lower.


Every win is legitimate as long you play according to the rules (not considering mods)... class and race do not magically nullify all of your effort.


We were just being silly. :)


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:05 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
I feel like Oozemancer is ready to be moved up to A. Certainly always fit the tanky criterion, and now with Cornac being a top-tier race, good synergy with Tinkers (Alchemist's Helper is very strong and you can always "quick hands" in Fungal Web if you need the heal), Cunning/Will being a good base for PES, Track being part of Survival, and the buffs to Antimagic they've gotten a number of incidental buffs. What part of the package are they missing?

Having played a bit with Paradox Mages on Insane lately I feel like I'm always needing more Cat points, more class points, more generics... I feel like I'd be awesome if I wasn't stretched so thin. Oozemancer, at least through level 40ish/going East, felt much more solid and stable the whole way through. (Haven't won yet, so that could obviously change.)


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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 742
Paradox Mage doesn't need many class or generic points, only category points. Contingency and Time Shield are basically free Inscription slots so it's fine that the class is category point-hungry. After level 20 you should take very little because of Reality Smearing and Webs of Fate and Attenuate and Seal Fate provides excellent damage.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:14 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
Generic and cat strain might be a sign that steam tech and Chronomancy don't mix, and I've been trying to make Gravity work which can be a little class point heavy. Otoh, even if you skip Steam you're not getting Time Shield as until, what, 36 as a Shalore (if Flux is priority 1 and Entropy 2)?

Mostly brought them up as a contrast for Oozemancer, though. I could definitely be doing it wrong (in fact I seem to be), but Oozemancer seems to have a smoother road early (easier resource management pre-Prodigy, core defenses unlocked as early as level 8 and 12, summons to fire-and-run, Nature's Balance). Could definitely see argument that PM ends up stronger, but in my limited Insane experience (2 wins only) my worst pre-High Peak experiences arise from clusters of bosses and rares in T1 & T2 dungeons. I definitely had an easier time with them as a Cornac Oozemancer than a Shalore PM.

So, again, why B for Oozemancer? What do they lack that other A's have?


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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 1:56 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 742
Oozemancer has no ability to deal with stun or confuse outside of Infusions and it has poor damage. It's pretty good but I don't know if it's actually better than anything currently in A. Also you shouldn't go Tinkers on Paradox Mage, you don't have the category points for it. It's probably the worst class for Tinkers.

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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:52 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
Yeah, I'm discovering that about Paradox Tinkers.

Edited tons for clarity, and to reflect deathless Insane win (though sadly, not on Roguelike, because I don't need that stress in my life).

https://te4.org/characters/4806/tome/64 ... b6f2264ce9

To be clear - not arguing Oozemancers are S tier, I can see how their damage would be inadequate there and they haven't cleared Madness. But on Insane, I find their 4-29 game easier than a Paradox Mage (and, depending on race choice for PM, their 30 might take a good while longer than a Cornac Oozemancer's). Because an Oozemancer (unlike a PM) can get what they really need out of their class with only 2 Cat points (Oozing Blades and Eyal), a Cornac Ooze can run 5 Inscriptions + Tinkers. I think the inclusion of tinkers lifts Oozemancers up notably more than some other classes on account.

I auto-trigger Mucus on sight of enemy in order to lazily manage equilibrium and spawn mucus oozes, but it also means I'm usually ready to Oozewalk a square (or over to Acid Splash, if relevant) to remove 2 physical or magical effects. Also, given that cornac is a strong race for them they're starting out with 4 inscriptions, which means wild: phys, wild: mental, movement, and regen are there for the taking starting out. That's not top-tier status clears by any means, but it's not terrible for a low level character, either. Once they get tinkers rolling @ 20 the salves help a lot with choice and number of status clears, grounding strap is grounding strap, and other tinkers buff your resists & saves (both directly and indirectly through stats) in conjunction with PES. Post Wyrm you can run Regeneration, Heroism (and, as needed, start fights by triggering both of these and then Slime Roots-ing to reset them), Movement, and double Injector, which I'd argue is pretty good status control once you've managed stun immunity through other means.

Their damage... I think it's fine if you're running Superpower and PES, and it's not like there's a defensive Prodigy you need more (I never felt the lack of Spine of the World). It's more grinding down with a layering of DOTs, DOT-esque AoE's, and summons than the savage burst beatings that DPS melee / ranged classes can dish out, with your big hits being Call of Ooze topping out with crits for mid 5k, but is that worse than Necro?

Anyway, no big deal if Oozemancer's don't belong by some criterion, just wondering what it was given their toolbox. If the consensus is their damage and limited status clears are enough to keep them out, fair enough, but I thought the criterion for A was "virtually unkillable when played right" which I think Oozemancer can qualify for, and to paraphrase Sun Tzu, "if you don't lose you'll win eventually."


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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Low Yeek

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:27 pm
Posts: 5
On Oozemancer - generally very strong, yes, but the low damage can be an issue on the last fight. I just steamrolled the game on insane until I reached there, but then died as I didn't have enough damage to end it in a reasonable time


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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2017 12:59 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
It was not an issue for me at all, but part of that depends on a lot of variables, including whatever rando versions of the Sorcerers end up spawning on Insane. Could also be build or strategy differences (did you run Superpower & PES and pop Heroism before PES triggered? Acidfire to keep Natural Acid topped up and chew through buffs? Mana Clash for the 15% bonus damage on Call of the Ooze?) or gear differences - despite cracking every vault in the Prides and most of them in High Peak I never found Eyal's Will, but did have Eye of Forest, Tree of Life, and Oozing Heart by endgame, and with those and the Alchemist's Helper tinker my nature damage bonus was about +90% before Natural Acid.

(E: Confirmed that crit multiplier is across the board.) Running dual Crystal Edges for +30% crit multiplier on all your attacks is another significant damage output advantage that tinkers bring to Oozemancers - if you take your crit multiplier from the default 150% to 180%, that's 20% net damage bonus, and with the +20 Cunning available through Mental Stimulator and Crystal Plating 100% crit is significantly easier to achieve.

I didn't end up doing it my Oozemancer win, but you can also run rocket boots/steam powered boots or a steam implant to run around on infinite rocket boots and close all the portals first off, as closing a portal doesn't break rocket boot speed. With this approach, your window for winning doesn't evaporate with added time.


Last edited by Snarvid on Tue May 09, 2017 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 5:53 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 742
I could totally see Oozemancer being moved to A tier simply because of the Antimagic buffs, I just haven't tried it since 1.5. I suspect that Antimagic Shield applies after Mitosis and if so Oozemancer should be nearly impossible to kill with non-physical attacks. Also Aura of Silence and Mana Clash reducing EQ is a pretty big deal.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 pm
Posts: 149
The eq reduction is essentially a non issue, as oozemancer had 0 problems with eq even before the patch


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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 742
It's now easier to sustain Antimagic shield since if you don't have Mitosis up your EQ would gain quickly and it doesn't take much to push it over the failure threshold with the 30 sustain cost. You're right that the Aura of Silence and Mana Clash changes don't really matter though.

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PostPosted: Mon May 08, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:46 pm
Posts: 239
I'm playing an oozemancer, and rarely notice my equilibrium being much over the minimum from my sustains. I'm not sure how much different it would have been before the patch, particularly with the change to resolve.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 168
As I bang my head against Madness mode - is vaulting assumed in Madness? Not that I've made it last T2 without multiple deaths yet, just would not want to invalidate a Madness win by vaulting if that's not kosher.


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