ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:42 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
Introduction
It's definitely hard for me to objectively assess which classes are the most powerful in ToME, especially since there are some that I haven't gotten to the east with. However, I believe I have enough experience with ToME and its mechanics to be able to fairly accurately assess the strengths and weaknesses of classes I haven't won with by looking at their set of talents. Many people clearly have much more experience than me with several classes listed here considering I've won with only 13 of the 25 classes in ToME, so I appreciate any feedback on this. This list is balanced for Nightmare difficulty, so classes like Bulwark and Alchemist might be lower than you expect due to survivability issues.

This isn't meant to be a balance whine or anything like that; overall I think the balance of this game is pretty good. My goal here is simply to list the strengths and weaknesses of each class relative to other classes. Aside from the bottom two tiers, I think most of the classes are reasonably well balanced.

Tier 1

Archmage
Offense: *****
Defense: ******
Utility/Control: *****
Mobility: ****
Difficulty: ***
Recommended race: Shalore/Cornac
Recommended categories: Temporal, Aether/Wildfire, Meta
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize, Draconic Will
Despite not having Unstoppable, Bone Shield, or Damage Smearing, Archmages can tank upwards of 12,000 damage with their shield talents. In addition, Aether and Wildfire builds both do very high damage and have decent utility as well (silence from Aether Beam, effect removal from Cleansing Flames, stun from Flameshock). Their other categories also have many useful talents like Freeze, Pulverizing Augur, and Stone Wall. Additionally, Conveyance makes the class's mobility very strong as well. Overall Archmagi excel in every aspect making them the most powerful class in ToME.

Corruptor
Offense: ******
Defense: ******
Utility/Control: *****
Mobility: **
Difficulty: **
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Bone, Shadowflame or Survival
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize/Eye of the Tiger, Draconic Will
Bone Shield is among the best defensive talents in the game, and unlike Aegis and Unstoppable, it's a sustain. In addition to this, Corruptors have very strong damage, outclassing all other ranged classes including Archmage thanks to the Plague category, Vimsense, and very strong sustains. Corrupted Negation is an incredible talent for removing sustains, but it becomes hard to use against enemies with high spell save. This isn't the only good utility/control talent Corruptors have; they also have Wraithform, Hexes, and the stun from Catalepsy. Their mobility is their weakest aspect with Dark Portal being their only mobility talent, but it's still good for a quick escape.

Reaver
Offense: ******
Defense: ******
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: **
Difficulty: ***
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Survival, Stone Alchemy or Light
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize/Flexible Combat, Draconic Will
Reavers play pretty much exactly the same as Corruptors when played optimally (the build is known as Correaver). The biggest difference is that they have more free category points since they start with Torment and Bone while Corruptors do not, allowing them to more easily pick up Survival, Stone Alchemy, or Light. They also hit very hard in melee when dual-wielding shortstaves since they get a free attack upon casting a spell. However, they lack the Blood and Blight categories which are very powerful, making their ranged damage and utility slightly worse than that of Corruptors. Also they get Hexes far later, making the early game slightly harder for them as well.

Marauder
Offense: ******
Defense: ******
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: *****
Difficulty: *****
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Battle Tactics, Bloodthirst
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Draconic Will
Unstoppable is simply the single best defensive talent in the game, especially with Timeless. Marauders also have the second best melee damage of any class (only beaten Arcane Blades) thanks to Greater Weapon Focus, Momentum, and Blinding Speed. Thanks to Bloodbath and Quick Recovery, unlike Rogues and Shadowblades, Marauders can actually afford to sustain Momentum because you get good stamina regeneration. They also have exceptional mobility with Rush and Step Up and good control as well with Cripple, Dirty Fighting, Dual Strike, and Skullcracker. Overall, Marauder is easily one of the best classes in the game and definitely the best melee one. They have no weak aspects at all except for being melee.

Tier 2

Berserker
Offense: ****
Defense: ******
Utility/Control: *****
Mobility: **
Difficulty: ****
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Bloodthirst, Dirty Fighting
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Draconic Will/Legacy of the Naloren
This class is pretty much a weaker Marauder. However, a weaker Marauder is still very powerful overall. Berserker does not have anywhere near as much damage as Marauder since it lacks both Greater Weapon Focus and Momentum. Additionally, Dirty Fighting and Field Control are both locked, meaning you'll have to skip one of them since Bloodthirst is not optional. Not having Step Up is also a serious mobility issue since Berserker just has Rush for mobility and nothing else. However, Berserker does have a few things up on Marauder, specifically Stunning Blow and Warshout which are significantly better than Marauder's control talents.

Arcane Blade
Offense: ********
Defense: *****
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: ******
Difficulty: ******
Recommended race: Shalore/Thalore
Recommended categories: Battle Tactics, Two-Handed Maiming/Dual Techniques
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Draconic Will/Cauterize/Temporal Form
This class's damage potential is probably over quadruple that of any other class thanks to the staff accuracy bonus. I would not be surprised to see Arcane Blades doing 100,000 damage in a single turn. Aside from that, they also have the best mobility of any class thanks to Conveyance, Rush, Step Up and Feather Wind and they have very strong defense as well with Aegis (although significantly worse than Archmagi since Arcane Blades lack two of the three good shields). They also have good control with Dirty Fighting and the locked categories, but this isn't really anything special compared to other melee classes. They are also among the hardest classes to play since they are very awkward to build and start and they are a bit luck dependent with Arcane Combat procs.

Temporal Warden
Offense: *****
Defense: *****
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: *****
Difficulty: ******
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Dual Weapon Mastery, Time Travel
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Draconic Will/Temporal Form
Despite not having Greater Weapon Focus, melee Temporal Wardens have high melee damage output by attacking very quickly thanks to Momentum, Haste, and Grace of the Eternals, making their damage among the best. Damage Smearing is among the best defensive talents in ToME and with a Warding Wand, you can become almost immune to damage for its duration. Dimensional Step and Celerity are both great for mobility and with Timeless, you can use Dimensional Step twice instantly allowing you to cross great distances. Although landing the statuses might be tough, Temporal Wardens have good control as well with Time Skip, Slow, Stop, and Dual Strike. They have a very slow start so don't expect them to be great immediately, but Temporal Wardens are very powerful overall.

Oozemancer
Offense: *****
Defense: *****
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: ****
Difficulty: *
Recommended race: Thalore
Recommended categories: Oozing Blades, Corrosive Blades
Recommended prodigies: Spell Feedback, Spine of the World
Oozemancer is a very simple and easy class compared to any other tier1-2 classes. For offense, you have six attack talents that are all very powerful, and three of which have a low enough cooldown to allow you to spam them. Oozemancer's defense is also incredible thanks to Mitosis, Leaves' Tide, Leaves' Tide, and Indiscernible Anatomy. In addition, Mucus Oozes can tank for you despite being primarily offensive. For utility, Oozemancer is somewhat lacking because it has no stun or daze, but Mosses and Poisonous Spores partially make up for it, although Poisonous Spores isn't very reliable and Moss talents have poor range. For mobility, Oozemancer has two decent controlled teleports, which is helpful but nothing special. Overall, Oozemancer is very strong both offensively and defensively and a great class for newer players.

Tier 3

Summoner
Offense: ****
Defense: ***
Utility/Control: *****
Mobility: *
Difficulty: **
Recommended race: Thalore
Recommended categories: Summoning (Advanced), Summoning (Augmentation)
Recommended prodigies: Spine of the World, Blighted Summoning/Cauterize
Summoner is a unique class since it is completely reliant on summoning allies and it has no offensive capabilities on its on. However, the allies it summons are truly incredible, specifically the Fire Drake. Despite having poor defense on their own, Summoners are exceptional at staying alive since they just need to hide behind their summons. The summons also have excellent control, with stun, freeze, and confusion at their disposal.

Solipsist
Offense: **
Defense: *****
Utility/Control: *****
Mobility: ***
Difficulty: ***
Recommended race: Thalore
Recommended categories: Nightmare, Discharge
Recommended prodigies: Spine of the World, Mental Tyranny/Bloodspring/Eye of the Tiger/Through the Crowd
Solipsists have very poor damage compared to most other classes, with their only particularly good damage talents being Mind Sear and Hammer Toss (which are admittedly very powerful). Despite this, they are a solid class thanks to their incredible defense. Their Thought-Forms are among the better summons in ToME, requiring a small point investment for a large benefit (4-5/1/4/1 is good enough) and Overmind is one of the most underrated talents. Additionally, Inner Demons is exceptional for taking out tough enemies since it essentially causes them to kill themselves. Solipsists also have good sources of stun, sleep, and brainlock, making it easy to shut down enemies, and when in a bad situation, they can often Dream Walk to safety. Very good class overall despite its poor damage.

Stone Warden
Offense: *****
Defense: *****
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: *
Difficulty: ***
Recommended categories: Stone Alchemy, Deeprock
Recommended prodigies: Eternal Guard/Cauterize, Spectal Shield/Crafty Hands
Stone Wardens are an interesting class. They have very strong defense thanks to their Stone Half, dual shields, and other defensive talents. Their offense is also very strong thanks to their Crystalline Half and Deeprock. The issue is once the halves are down and Deeprock is on cooldown, Stone Wardens have a hard time doing anything beyond attack in melee (if going dual-shields), for which their talents are good but their bump attacks are not. Also Stone Wardens suffer from having terrible mobility, since their only mobility talents aside from Stone Walking and Gem Portal are dependent on Vines, which ironically cut their movement speed in half. Despite their problems and strangeness, Stone Wardens are still a solid class overall.

Doomed
Offense: *****
Defense: ****
Utility/Control: *****
Mobility: **
Difficulty: *****
Recommended race: Shalore/Thalore
Recommended categories: One With Shadows, Shadows (increase mastery to 1.5)
Recommended prodigies: Mental Tyranny, Draconic Will/Cauterize
Shadows are incredible for offense and One With Shadows makes them amazing for defense as well. Aside from that, Madness is incredible for shutting down foes and most of Force of Will is good for control as well. Darkness is very strong as well since it can make you effectively invisible to foes who aren't right next to you, but it does require a significant point investment before becoming truly great. Dark Gifts is a solid investment as well, with the last two talents being hidden gems. One big issue with Doomed is its very poor mobility (only has Shadow Transposition), but aside from that it's one of the better classes in ToME.

Necromancer
Offense: ****
Defense: ****
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: ***
Difficulty: *****
Recommended race: Shalore/Higher
Recommended categories: Shades, Advanced Necrotic Minions/Light
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize, Blighted Summoning/Bloodspring
Necromancers are somewhat between Summoners and Archmages in terms of playstyle. However, it performs neither job even close to as well as Archmage or Summoner. The Nightfall spells are all strong but they all suffer from high cooldowns, making it hard to spam their strong spells. Forgery of Haze does wonders to make up for this, but Necromancers start to have problems again when it's on cooldown. For defense, while Necromancers lack Archmage's Aegis, they have Blurred Mortality, Vampiric Gift, and the shield from Sacrifice to keep them alive. Necromancer is by no means an easy class to play, but once it gets going it is very rewarding.

Tier 4

Cursed
Offense: ******
Defense: **
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: *****
Difficulty: ****
Recommended race: Thalore/Cornac
Recommended categories: Rampage, Predator/Survival
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Legacy of the Naloren/Spine of the World
Cursed is one of the best damage dealers in ToME, outclassed only by Arcane Blade, Marauder, Temporal Warden, and perhaps the stealth classes. Rampage makes Cursed's damage pretty ridiculous making them having good damage output despite not having Blinding Speed, Momentum, or Greater Weapon Focus. Cursed also has two incredible shutdown talents: Beckon and Harass Prey. Both of these are exceptional at dealing with high-damage threats, helping you survive long enough to burst them down. Cursed also excels at mobility thanks to Rampage, making it so you have about half a Movement Infusion's worth of speed as long as Rampage is up. Unfortunately, Cursed has very poor defense outside of these two talents, only really having Tenacity from Rampage and Gloom's various effects (Sanctuary is really good though). Despite its poor defense, Cursed is still an above average class and one of the strongest melee classes. It was a very tough choice putting Cursed in tier 4 over tier 3, but I couldn't justify bumping any of the tier 3 classes down (although the argument could be made for lowering Necromancer to tier 4).

Archer
Offense: *****
Defense: *
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: **
Difficulty: **
Recommended race: Shalore/Thalore
Recommended categories: Traps, Archery Excellence
Recommended prodigies: Mystical Cunning, Draconic Will/Spine of the World/Vital Shot
Archer's have very high damage for a ranged class and they have decent utility from Traps and various attack talents. However, they suffer from extremely poor defense (they have Shoot Down and that's it) and mobility (they have Bull Shot and Disengage, neither of which are amazing). There isn't a lot to say about this class since its strengths and weaknesses are very clear. It would be very bad without Traps, but with Traps it's a pretty average class with strong offense and poor defense.

Shadowblade
Offense: ******
Defense: ***
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: *****
Difficulty: ****
Recommended race: Shalore/Cornac
Recommended categories: Temporal, Stealth/Ambush
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Draconic Will/Cauterize/Arcane Might
Shadowblade's damage is pretty insane thanks to Momentum, Blinding Speed, Essence of Speed, and Shadowstrike. Time Shield and Stealth both help for defense, but Shadowblade has no way to recover lost health aside from using items or Infusions. Shadowblades have incredible mobility thanks to Rush, Shadowstep, and Conveyance, which is the aspect where they most notably outclass Rogues. Their control talents aren't great, especially since you won't often pass your Spellpower checks against enemies, but they still have multiple stuns and dazes which decent enough are good enough, plus more if picking up Ambush (unfortunately, three of your important categories start locked and Ambush is the least appealing so you might end up skipping it). Overall this is a solid high-damage melee class with just enough defense to get by.

Rogue
Offense: *****
Defense: **
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: ***
Difficulty: *****
Recommended race: Thalore
Recommended categories: Combat Techniques, Poisons
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Mystical Cunning
Rogues are like a hybrid between Archer and Shadowblade, having Archer's Traps and Poisons and Shadowblades Stealth and high damage output. However, Rogue doesn't do either of these better than Archer and Shadowblade since it's melee nature makes Traps less easy to use and it inexplicably has Combat Techniques locked at only 1.0 mastery (and Shadowblade also has Temporal over Rogue). Sure its damage is still good because of Stealth and Momentum and Traps are good no matter what, but in the end there's nothing particularly special about this class. Another serious problem is that Rogue has very little but Stealth for defense, making it hard to stay alive long enough to bring down your foes. Fortunately, Rogue has plenty of stuns and such to deal with this, but it's still very hard for Rogues to safely deal with mages. Overall Rogue is pretty average with strong damage and poor defense, but I'd have a hard time ever recommending this class over Archer or Shadowblade.

Bulwark
Offense: *****
Defense: ****
Utility/Control: **
Mobility: ****
Difficulty: **
Recommended race: Thalore
Recommended categories: Battle Tactics, Dirty Fighting
Recommended prodigies: Eternal Guard, Spectral Shield
Bulwarks do very high damage thanks to Greater Weapon Focus and the Shield Offense category, which is incredible even at 1/4/1/1. They also have very good mobility thanks to Rush and Step Up. Their defense is above average too with Blocking and also True Grit and Last Stand, although both of these will drain stamina very quickly. Bulwarks don't have as good control as the rest of the melee classes, having just one stun and some knockbacks without Dirty Fighting, but overall this isn't too much of a problem. Overall Bulwark is a solid class that suffers from being outshined in in every aspect by Marauder and Arcane Blade.

Tier 5

Anorithil
Offense: ****
Defense: ****
Utility/Control: ****
Mobility: *
Difficulty: ***
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Circles, Glyphs/Survival
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize, Draconic Will/Eye of the Tiger
Anorithils have decent defense with the Light and Circles categories and good damage too with Corona. They also have the ability to stun, confuse, and silence their foes, albeit only at a fairly close range for a mage. However, they suffer from having poor range for a mage (Moonlight Ray is their only range 10 spell) and from not having enough good damage talents (Star Fury is their only good offense category). Anorithils also have nearly zero mobility, with their only mobility talent, Jumpgate, requiring a turn to set up beforehand.

Alchemist
Offense: *****
Defense: ***
Utility/Control: **
Mobility: **
Difficulty: *
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Advanced Golemancy, Fire Alchemy
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize, Draconic Will/Spine of the World/Secrets of Telos
Alchemists have two things going for them: high-damage bombs and a tanky minion. Unfortunately, neither of these are good enough to make up for the class's extremely poor mobility and control (no stun or confuse or really any kind of shutdown aside from the Golem's Taunt). Additionally, despite Throw Bomb being incredible, Alchemists struggle to do damage when it's on cooldown (Heat can't crit and Fire Storm is weak). The Golem's damage also leaves much to be desired, with most of its damage coming from Reflective Skin and Eye Beam. Overall, Alchemist is below average despite its strong bombs and minion because it just doesn't have much else besides those two things.

Paradox Mage
Offense: ******
Defense: **
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: *****
Difficulty: ***
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Paradox, Timeline Threading
Recommended prodigies: Cauterize, Temporal Form
Paradox Mage's do absolutely insane damage, beating all other mages except Corruptor, Reaver, and possibly Archmage. I don't think any enemy on Normal except a handful of bosses and uniques can survive Time Skip -> Reduxed Quantum Spike when Temporal Form is active. Unfortunately, Paradox Mages have such poor defense that surviving multiple turns is a serious issue. All they have besides Energy sustains is a really bad heal in the form of Body Reversion. On the bright side, they do have decent mobility and status effects like confusion, but unfortunately they still lack a good stun.

Mindslayer
Offense: ****
Defense: ****
Utility/Control: **
Mobility: ***
Difficulty: *****
Recommended race: Thalore/Cornac
Recommended categories: Augmented Mobility, Grip/Finer Energy Manipulations
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Spine of the World/Superpower
Their shields are good as is their late-game melee damage. However, pretty much everything else this class has is underwhelming. Mindslayers have no sources of stun or confusion, their only good ranged attack can't be spammed without draining psi very quickly, all their mobility talents are in a locked category and they're all pretty bad except one, they have no speed boosts of any kind, and they require an absurd amount of micromanagement. Despite their Absorption category and their decent damage, Mindslayers' many flaws simply can't be ignored.

Tier 6

Sun Paladin
Offense: ****
Defense: ****
Utility/Control: **
Mobility: **
Difficulty: ****
Recommended race: Shalore
Recommended categories: Combat Techniques, Guardian
Recommended prodigies: Eternal Guard, Spectral Shield
Sun Paladins have good attack talents and strong defense, but they suffer from serious mobility problems with Combat Techniques locked and no other source of mobility. They also have one stun and no other notable status effects, which is pretty underwhelming for a melee class. Light is good as always but it isn't good enough to make Sun Paladins a powerful class.

Wyrmic
Offense: **
Defense: ***
Utility/Control: **
Mobility: ***
Difficulty: ****
Recommended race: Thalore
Recommended categories: Combat Techniques, Higher Draconic Abilities
Recommended prodigies: Fungal Blood, Spine of the World
Wyrmics are not very good at anything. Their melee damage is the worst of the melee classes and their ranged talents fall off very quickly despite being good early. They can apply a variety of status effects but the only reliable ones are the stun from Tornado and Shield Bash and the blind from Sand Breath and Dissolve. Burrow and Ice Wall are both pretty handy, and Fungus helps a lot with defense, but these simply aren't enough to make Wyrmic a good class.

Brawler
Offense: ***
Defense: *
Utility/Control: ***
Mobility: **
Difficulty: **
Recommended race: Thalore/Shalore
Recommended categories: Dirty Fighting, Stone Alchemy/Harmony/Dreaming/whatever
Recommended prodigies: Flexible Combat, Spine of the World
Brawlers have decent damage, decent mobility, underwhelming control/utility, and zero defense. There really isn't anything that makes up for their complete lack of defense since their other aspects are all utterly mediocre. Additionally, their locked categories are all bad except Dirty Fighting, which isn't anything special since all Warrior/Rogue classes have access to it.

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Last edited by bpat on Mon May 12, 2014 6:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:42 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
Posts: 318
Alchemist tier five? I would put them in tier 1 or 2. They have one of the best area of effect attacks in the game. Area of effect. It can hardly be overstated how much better that is than a single target attack like shooting or swinging a sword. Offensively they outrank marauders.

Defensively, the golem is incredible. And if you give him a good offensive rune, like rune of the rift, he's a big help offensively too.
I played both an alchemist and a wildfire mage to the endgame and the alchemist felt stronger to me. How an alchemist destroys the orc ambush.. no other class makes it such a cakewalk.

Also, why recommend shalore for them especially? Increasing speed is not that hot, when your main attack is limited by cooldown. Am I missing a timeless combo here? I'd prefer Cornac or Dwarf.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:55 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
I figured Alchemist would be the first class people would disagree with. I thought about putting them at tier 4 since they're pretty borderline and good arguments could be made for reducing Bulwark to tier 5, but the lack of mobility and defense was what made up my mind. Bombs are very good for damage and AoE, but unfortunately their status effects aren't very reliable and their long cooldown makes them a bit less appealing when you can't burst an enemy down with a single bomb. The Golem is good as well but aside from the Golem and Throw Bomb, Alchemist is pretty much helpless. The class is being reworked and it looks good enough to increase it to at least tier 3, but for now with Fire Alchemy being terrible and Channel Staff being mediocre Alchemist isn't a particularly great class. Also Alchemist is very good on Normal, but on Nightmare (which this list is based on) it needs better defense and mobility to be a solid pick.

I recommended Shalore for Alchemist simply because Shalore is a very powerful race in general and Alchemist doesn't have any interesting prodigy options, so Draconic Will is an excellent choice with Timeless. Even if casting Channel Staff more often isn't great, global speed still helps with escaping and such. As always, Thalore is also a good choice for the class, but this is true for all classes in ToME so I didn't feel it was worth mentioning.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:21 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
Posts: 318
Yes, I always play on normal. I can see how alchemy bombs might not scale very well in higher difficulties. Still, for other n00bs like me out there, I think it's good to make it clear that playing on insane or beyond changes class rankings quite a bit. Combos that are not that hot in normal mode like timeless unstoppable become much better, maybe almost necessary to survive.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
grobblewobble wrote:
Yes, I always play on normal. I can see how alchemy bombs might not scale very well in higher difficulties. Still, for other n00bs like me out there, I think it's good to make it clear that playing on insane or beyond changes class rankings quite a bit. Combos that are not that hot in normal mode like timeless unstoppable become much better, maybe almost necessary to survive.


I mentioned somewhere in the introduction that the list was based on Nightmare. For Normal, it'd look something like this.

Tier 0
Oozemancer

Tier 1
Summoner
Corruptor
Solipsist
Stone Warden

Tier 2
Archmage
Alchemist
Reaver

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:19 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:29 am
Posts: 703
Location: Turtlemire
Now for an addon class version. :wink:

More seriously, I'm surprised Summoner is so low.
Yeah, Nightmare has higher enemy scaling, but I was under the impression that a good crit-summon was capable of rough-housing even the toughest of cookies with relative safety.
Is it due to a reliant on an escort for Track early?

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
Posts: 126
StarKeep wrote:
More seriously, I'm surprised Summoner is so low.


Both summoner and solipsist can unlock 6k per hit achievement before level 50 so definitely offense (stars) rattings are a bit too low. Main problem for tier 3 and below is lack of good passive defence.

For example my summoner died while digging my way to stairs @ high peak. Something simply phase door to my tunnel and killed me before i could do anything. Tier 1 / 2 classes can handle such situations easily.


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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:41 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:01 pm
Posts: 1303
Location: Finland
Somehow I got the feeling bpat might be a bit biased towards S/Thaloren. Personally I have the least amount of wins with these races.

Not saying I'm right in here either, but there has to be something else in here.

For Corruptor I would definitely include Cornac for they benefit a lot from category points.
Also high burst classes like Shadowblade benefit immensely from certain crit of a Halfling, especially in early game where Cun and gear don't give much crit.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 12:28 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
ZyZ wrote:
StarKeep wrote:
More seriously, I'm surprised Summoner is so low.


Both summoner and solipsist can unlock 6k per hit achievement before level 50 so definitely offense (stars) rattings are a bit too low. Main problem for tier 3 and below is lack of good passive defence.

For example my summoner died while digging my way to stairs @ high peak. Something simply phase door to my tunnel and killed me before i could do anything. Tier 1 / 2 classes can handle such situations easily.


That's pretty much exactly why I put Summoner where I did. It's a great class, but it has almost no defense without summons. Also, while their damage is good, it's fairly easy for enemies with good AoE to be able to kill your summons before they can do much.

Faeryan wrote:
Somehow I got the feeling bpat might be a bit biased towards S/Thaloren. Personally I have the least amount of wins with these races.

Not saying I'm right in here either, but there has to be something else in here.

For Corruptor I would definitely include Cornac for they benefit a lot from category points.
Also high burst classes like Shadowblade benefit immensely from certain crit of a Halfling, especially in early game where Cun and gear don't give much crit.


Shalore and Thalore really are the most powerful races in ToME. All four of Shalore's racials are great, especially the Grace of the Eternals and Timeless (Timeless is great even on classes without notably synergy for the debuff removal and cooldown reset). Thalore's Nature's Pride is in incredible as well, since the summoned Treants have a stun, an irresistible taunt, and tons of health. In addition, Wrath of the Woods scales better into the late game than other racials like Luck of the Little Folk and Resilience of the Dwarves since percent damage and damage reduction is better than saves (which are just weak in general), armor (armor doesn't scale too well late game and Resilience of the Drawves scales with Constitution), and critical chance (you should be able to get at least 75% with almost any class).

I'm not trying to imply that other races are bad for these classes (Halfling specifically is a pretty good choice for many classes), but if you're looking for the best race to play, it's going to be Shalore or Thalore almost every time.

I don't like Cornac for Corruptor because honestly the only truly important category to unlock is Bone. Torment is really not needed at all thanks to Bloodcasting and going Cornac just to get Survival isn't really worth it. Shadowflame isn't even that good since the global speed you get isn't very high and Darkfire is worthless. Also Shalore Corruptor has among the best race-class synergy in ToME thanks to the Timeless + Virulent Disease + Catalepsy and Timeless + Draconic Will + Bone Shield combos.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:06 pm
Posts: 79
Have to agree with your summoner synopsis. After winning my first normal with a summoner, when I decided to make the leap to Nightmare, I had a very hard time winning the game. The summons simply die far too easily on high peak, and once they are gone, you have nothing.

I am surprised at your low ranking of Anorithil. I'm currently on my second la-la-la rofltstomp nightmare run with an anorithil, having no deaths prior to running up to hi peak is not uncommon.

If they take a movement infusion their mobility is fixed (you are correct that they suffer here) but once they drop circles, it's all over. I have had infinitely more success with anorithil than with rogues, shadowblades, or cursed for example, all of whom suffer the fatal flaw of *melee*.

Vs the master, in the prides, and against the tough slime tunnel bosses....Anorithil is actually boring.

Again, just my two cents...very nice outline!


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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Tue May 06, 2014 4:17 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
Furey wrote:
Have to agree with your summoner synopsis. After winning my first normal with a summoner, when I decided to make the leap to Nightmare, I had a very hard time winning the game. The summons simply die far too easily on high peak, and once they are gone, you have nothing.

I am surprised at your low ranking of Anorithil. I'm currently on my second la-la-la rofltstomp nightmare run with an anorithil, having no deaths prior to running up to hi peak is not uncommon.

If they take a movement infusion their mobility is fixed (you are correct that they suffer here) but once they drop circles, it's all over. I have had infinitely more success with anorithil than with rogues, shadowblades, or cursed for example, all of whom suffer the fatal flaw of *melee*.

Vs the master, in the prides, and against the tough slime tunnel bosses....Anorithil is actually boring.

Again, just my two cents...very nice outline!


On Insane, Summoner was easy enough until Vor Armory, at which point my summons just died instantly to enemies like Orc High Pyromancers, leaving me unable to do pretty much anything without very good positioning. I could have probably gone a bit farther than that, but it would have been very difficult compared to other classes I got to that point with on Insane. I think the same issues still occur on Nightmare since most summons aren't very tanky and are still vulnerable to attacks like Fireshock and Ice Storm, which completely debilitate them.

You might be right about Anorithil, which is admittedly one of the classes I haven't played particularly far. I might be underrating Circles a little since I usually didn't get far enough to invest heavily in any Circles but Warding (which is really good). Poor mobility by itself wouldn't be as big a problem if it weren't for Anorithil being a mid-range caster rather than one with tons of range 10 spells. However, if Circles are as good for defense and Corona procs as you say, they might be better than some tier 4 classes like Bulwark. I'll make a mental note to give them another try on Nightmare.

The reason Rogues are good is solely because of Traps. If they didn't have that they'd be terrible. Shadowblades are good only because of their high damage and Temporal, which does wonders for survivability. Cursed are good because of their high movement and damage, although they used to be much better when movement speed was multiplicative rather than additive. Cursed pretty much need Heroism and Regeneration Infusions, but with them they can usually take down even tanky enemies before dying. On Nightmare, I steamrolled everything with no deaths up to Gorbat as Cornac, where I got stuck/bored, and had I gone Thalore (way better than Cornac after level 10) or had Harass Prey not been bugged (doesn't properly reduce damage, fixed next patch), Gorbat would have been easy enough as well.

Thanks for the feedback!

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:38 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 509
bpat wrote:
Doomed
Recommended categories: One With Shadows, Shadows

Shadows category starts unlocked (OWS does not, however). If you were aware of this and you are talking about increasing mastery it might be good to mention it.

Overall, this seems like a pretty solid list so thanks for the effort, bpat!

I have too won with 13 classes and there are only two classes I haven't really played with, Paradox Mage (which I didn't really even care to unlock until like last week) and Anorithil (which has resource management and doesn't sound too powerful).

I don't like the higher difficulties (too tedious, murderous autoexlore etc.) but I've taken out Linaniil and Atamathon and my impression of the higher difficulties is that that they require pretty much the same tactics as fighting with those guys: scout, autoexplore is bad, do huge damage burst while shielded/invulnerable/smearing ---> retreat and rinse and repeat. The basic principles are the same in normal too, you just can get away with more shit. So I think this list is helpful for normal as well.

To any people who may be wondering about the order of classes in this list: The plot is pretty clear here, really: the class needs to have very good defenses and at least passable damage to be considered very good. This is pretty intuitive since in a game which ends when your characters Health goes to negative values (yeah yeah, heroism exists) and huge burst damage exists staying above 0 is pretty important :lol:.

The thing I was wondering is that max Health isn't really mentioned even once in this list. I think it does matter at least until one gets cauterize and even though just tanking high burst damage with your Health is a pretty bad strategy and will eventually kill your character even in normal (against Ata, Lina the latest :lol: ), HP has a very clear advantage of over, say damage smearing, damage shields and blocking: it's always "on". Of course, against higher level threats and on higher difficulties you try to scout ahead so that you are not just at the mercy of your HP pool but have your defences up before taking any hits.

The only comment on the class stars/tiers is solipsist: I'm not that convinced that it has worse damage than Suckrics, sorry, I meant WYRMics. Part of me would like to see solipsist in tier-2 because I feel their damage is a bit underrated here. On the other hand, I'm not sure solipsism and eventually a very tanky defender + resonance field combined are that great against burst damage, compared to the very best defence talents that is. That being said, I've taken Ata out with a solipsist without dispelling his reflective skin so I guess solipsist's defences are pretty good :lol:.

Thanks again for the effort.

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 3:08 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
Mankeli wrote:
To any people who may be wondering about the order of classes in this list: The plot is pretty clear here, really: the class needs to have very good defenses and at least passable damage to be considered very good. This is pretty intuitive since in a game which ends when your characters Health goes to negative values (yeah yeah, heroism exists) and huge burst damage exists staying above 0 is pretty important :lol:.


This is pretty much exactly it. Defense is much more important than damage as long as damage isn't very, very low (Solipsists are an example of an otherwise incredible class with mediocre offense). If you're dying in a turn or two, it really doesn't matter how good your damage is, which is why classes like Bulwark, Alchemist, and Paradox Mage are pretty bad despite their great damage.

Mankeli wrote:
The thing I was wondering is that max Health isn't really mentioned even once in this list. I think it does matter at least until one gets cauterize and even though just tanking high burst damage with your Health is a pretty bad strategy and will eventually kill your character even in normal (against Ata, Lina the latest :lol: ), HP has a very clear advantage of over, say damage smearing, damage shields and blocking: it's always "on". Of course, against higher level threats and on higher difficulties you try to scout ahead so that you are not just at the mercy of your HP pool but have your defences up before taking any hits.


Max health is really easy to stack with items and therefore not as important as defensive talents. Also, health per level isn't very good until it stops mattering since you should have a Heroism Infusion by level 30 on most characters, at which point your class choice will probably not be giving you more than 200 max health, and at low levels where health is important, health per level doesn't give you much at all. I did take health per level into account for some classes where their health per level is most problematic (Mindslayer, Paradox Mage) but overall it's not that important compared to defensive talents.

Mankeli wrote:
The only comment on the class stars/tiers is solipsist: I'm not that convinced that it has worse damage than Suckrics, sorry, I meant WYRMics. Part of me would like to see solipsist in tier-2 because I feel their damage is a bit underrated here. On the other hand, I'm not sure solipsism and eventually a very tanky defender + resonance field combined are that great against burst damage, compared to the very best defence talents that is. That being said, I've taken Ata out with a solipsist without dispelling his reflective skin so I guess solipsist's defences are pretty good :lol:.


Solipsists are great but I still wouldn't rank them higher than any tier 1 or 2 classes because not only is their offense pretty weak, but their defense isn't quite up to par with any of the tier 1 and 2 classes, with the possible exception of Oozemancer. You are right that one star for damage is too harsh, it's more like two stars, but really their damage isn't good at all aside from Mind Sear and Hammer Toss (I suppose these two alone make it two stars though).

As always, I appreciate the feedback!

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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 4:57 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:56 pm
Posts: 126
bpat wrote:
You are right that one star for damage is too harsh, it's more like two stars, but really their damage isn't good at all aside from Mind Sear and Hammer Toss (I suppose these two alone make it two stars though).


rant on
They are able to do more damage than most classes. Dream smith gives you ~ 100-145 base damage hammer at 100 mind power with 1.3 talent. You can wear 2 mindstars / staff + mindstar and you still have access to one of the strongest weapon in game. ALL solipsist attacks can benefit from +20-35% dmg from lucid dreamer and 40-50% damage and damage penetration boost from night terror (you will need to download marson AWOL addon first to avoid night terror bugs). On top of that solip has ~140% base global speed, all attacks are mind powers so eye of the tiger works better compared to typical casters and mind speed improves everything. Archer, bulwark etc are already weaker than +phys focused solipsist and new egos will make gap even wider. You can apply weapon debuffs much faster with dream smith (super low talent cooldown, ability to attack multiple targets with forge echoes / hammer toss, maelstrom can help you to overcome mobility issues etc).

It is hard to quantify inner demons damage but there are times when inner demons summons absolutely wreck everything in their path.

Sleep + mind heavy solipsist damage is nothing special. I can agree with that but pure phys (preferably with good artifact 1H staff and superpower + eye of the tigger) hits very hard. After all you got better weapon, higher weapon stat multiplier and better skill dmg multipliers / passive dmg multipliers than for example berserker who gets 4 stars :)

ps. buffed hammer toss has range 12+ Even with 1.3 mastery it is 11 ? (im not 100% sure maybe it is 10 :P ) This should also count
rant off


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 Post subject: Re: Class Tier List
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 5:08 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 784
ZyZ wrote:
bpat wrote:
You are right that one star for damage is too harsh, it's more like two stars, but really their damage isn't good at all aside from Mind Sear and Hammer Toss (I suppose these two alone make it two stars though).


rant on
They are able to do more damage than most classes. Dream smith gives you ~ 100-145 base damage hammer at 100 mind power with 1.3 talent. You can wear 2 mindstars / staff + mindstar and you still have access to one of the strongest weapon in game. ALL solipsist attacks can benefit from +20-35% dmg from lucid dreamer and 40-50% damage and damage penetration boost from night terror (you will need to download marson AWOL addon first to avoid night terror bugs). On top of that solip has ~140% base global speed, all attacks are mind powers so eye of the tiger works better compared to typical casters and mind speed improves everything. Archer, bulwark etc are already weaker than +phys focused solipsist and new egos will make gap even wider. You can apply weapon debuffs much faster with dream smith (super low talent cooldown, ability to attack multiple targets with forge echoes / hammer toss, maelstrom can help you to overcome mobility issues etc).

It is hard to quantify inner demons damage but there are times when inner demons summons absolutely wreck everything in their path.

Sleep + mind heavy solipsist damage is nothing special. I can agree with that but pure phys (preferably with good artifact 1H staff and superpower + eye of the tigger) hits very hard. After all you got better weapon, higher weapon stat multiplier and better skill dmg multipliers / passive dmg multipliers than for example berserker who gets 4 stars :)

ps. buffed hammer toss has range 12+ Even with 1.3 mastery it is 11 ? (im not 100% sure maybe it is 10 :P ) This should also count
rant off


Staff Solipsist is an interesting idea that looks like it could potentially do massive damage, but it's hard to justify skipping Leaves' Tide for that (though this can be solved with Swift Hands). Also Superpower is a gimmick option and never better than Temporal Form, which looks like it might actually be good on Solipsists since Mental Tyranny is now completely worthless. One issue with this is that you can't bump attack with the Dream Hammer, so you can't make as much use of the global speed from Clarity as I'd like, but it still looks like it's worth trying just for Hammer Toss if nothing else. I'll give it a shot on Nightmare when I can find the time.

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