Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

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Patryn
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Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#1 Post by Patryn »

Since I finally found the ancient tome today, I went off to see how the questevent is.

1. The Caverns:
They are fun but IMHO could take a higher monster density. Just to make sure that ppl who aim to do the quest at least have a theoretical chance to beat the event when they reach the VotM. ;)

2. Ithilthum, Valley of the Moon:
Here we go. Since I already had an idea whats going to happen, I was scared like hell by the actual layout of the map. It looked like pure suicide: The portals are directly on the island and there is absolutely nothing to break LoS! I did take quite some time wandering around, planning and looking for good spots to place my AoE spells. Luckily the monster density didn't turn out to be as dramatic as I feared (and had in mind when suggesting this), but I soon noticed that everything ignored me but directly charged/casted towards Limmir. Keeping him alive through the entire event seemed impossible so I quickly phased doored him behind some trees (just a bit south of the stairs). It turned out this made the whole event cheesy, but I can't imagine any character without PD 5 / TP 5 winning the event.

So, why was it cheesy after poting him? I took my defensive position outside the lake between the moonstone and Limmir. I figured I had to intercept everything coming from the island toward Limmir. That was how it worked in the first place too. The demons walked towards the moonstone and as soon as they reached it, they headed in my direction (not sure if Limmir or I was their initial target). However, since they first walked to the stone I had a couple of free turns. In addition to my AoE spells only few even survived that long.
It began to become *really* cheesy, when one of the major demons casted "darkness" and the whole island went black. At this point the demons just stopped moving as soon as they reached the moonstone (or the bunch of demons already surrounding it). A "sense" every few dozen turns combined with vapor and inferno eradicted them without any resistace.

3.: The Corrupted Balrog:
His invisibility is crazy. I didn't even see him once. I just notice something nearby (4-5 grids) shooting at me and I shot back in that direction, incinerating everything that may have been roughly in this direction. It worked out the way I did the event, but I bet you are in severe trouble if something impossible to see nor detect just walks past you and shreds Limmir before you know whats going on.
Even this way, this may have happened to me if I wouldn't have kept up the AoEs going since I knew that the last couple of turns something big should appear. I don't know if he would have ignored me if I a) wouldn't have damaged him before or b) wouldn't have stood nearly directly in his path towards the far away and out of LoS Limmir...

Conclusion:
The event is fun and I'm very happy to see it implemented, allthough the event didn't turn out quite the way I imagined when I posted the proposal. ;)
However, I really doubt it's possible to beat if you can't teleport Limmir away. Means: everyone except archmages and shadowblades are in severe trouble. Not because the demons are too difficult but because they simply kill him off.


Proposals for improvement:
1. (minor): Right now the event directly starts when you use the scroll of summon. It would be nice and add some flavour if thats changed. When Limmir arrives you have to talk with him and he tells you something like
"Yes, this is the right place. I can feel the power radiation from this stone, but it somehow... feels... wrong. Corrupted! The demons you have fought on your way here must have tainted the once pure moonstone! I know a rite of cleansing but it will take some time to perform. And there a greater evil may be lurking below...
You must protect me while I concentrate on the rite of cleansing! Tell me when you are ready."
<Begin, I am ready to protect you with everything I got!>
<Wait, I need some more time for preperation.>
2. (major): As already mentioned, the way the event works now it looks pretty much impossible to keep Limmir alive without teleporting him somewhere safe. Thats why I mentioned in the original proposal to add some LoS breakers to avoid "collateral death" of the jeweler. In addition I had something in mind that resembles more a tactical defense event instead of "They come from all sides and either you kill em fast or they wipe you out".
I thought of something where the portals are nearby the stairs and the demons rush from a distinct direction towards the moonstone unless something hostile (in this case: the player) is nearby. That would result in something similar to the AI of the escort-quest, but with inverse factions. ;)
If the map is designed accordingly with bottlenecks and different LoS situations, many different classes/builds would be able to adjust a tactic according to their needs to defend the valley against the demons. However, this might require more demons to spawn, but since the situation itself is better controlable by the player it should work and give the event more tactical depth.
Maybe I'll manage to edit a proposal of a maplayout that may fit this idea. If I do so, I'll post it later.

Cheers,
Patryn

Patryn
Thalore
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:07 pm

Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#2 Post by Patryn »

Ah, I almost forgot to post the chardump so you can think about the charbuild I used (and thus: all my statements are related to).
[Tome 4.00 @ http://www.te4.org Character Dump]

Sex : Female STR: 28
Race : Nandor DEX: 25
Class : Archmage MAG: 84
Level : 38 WIL: 78
Exp : 93% CUN: 31
Gold : 2160.70 CON: 37

Attack(Main Hand): 26 Life : 817/817 Encumbrance : 83/90
Damage(Main Hand): 117 Difficulty : Normal
APR (Main Hand): 6 Mana : 431/449
Crit (Main Hand): 11% Positive : 0/141
Crit (Main Hand): 11% Negative : 0/141
Crit (Main Hand): 11%
Speed (Main Hand): 1.00

Fatigue : 4% Spellpower : 148
Armor : 33.063900479398Spell Crit : 20.3%
Defense : 17.25 Spell Speed : 1
Ranged Defense : 17.25

Physical damage : 8%
Fire damage : 32%
Blight damage : 8%

Physical Save : 16.25
Spell Save : 40.5
Mental Save : 27.25

All Resists: 0%
Physical Resist: 34%
Fire Resist: 35%
Cold Resist: 15%
Lightning Resist: 15%
Acid Resist: 15%
Nature Resist: 10%
Confusion Resistance: 100%
Blind Resistance: 100%
Stun Resistance: 100%

Number of NPC killed: 3506
Most killed NPC: brittle clear ooze (719)

[Talents Chart]

- Spell / Arcane (mastery 1.30)
Arcane Power (class) 5/5
Manathrust (class) 5/5
Manaflow (class) 0/5
Disruption Shield (class) 0/5
- Spell / Fire (mastery 1.40)
Flame (class) 1/5
Flameshock (class) 5/5
Fireflash (class) 1/5
Inferno (class) 5/5
- Spell / Earth (mastery 1.30)
Stone Skin (class) 1/5
Dig (class) 1/5
Strike (class) 1/5
Stone Wall (class) 2/5
- Spell / Water (mastery 1.40)
Corrosive Vapour (class) 5/5
Freeze (class) 1/5
Tidal Wave (class) 1/5
Ice Storm (class) 5/5
- Spell / Air (mastery 1.30)
Lightning (class) 5/5
Chain Lightning (class) 0/5
Feather Wind (class) 0/5
Thunderstorm (class) 0/5
- Spell / Conveyance (mastery 1.30)
Phase Door (generic) 4/5
Teleport (generic) 4/5
Displacement Shield (generic) 3/5
Probability Travel (generic) 3/5
- Spell / Nature (mastery 1.30)
Regeneration (generic) 5/5
Heal (generic) 2/5
Restoration (generic) 2/5
Nature's Call (generic) 1/5
- Spell / Meta (mastery 1.30)
Disperse Magic (class) 1/5
Spell Shaping (class) 5/5
Quicken Spells (class) 0/5
Metaflow (class) 0/5
- Spell / Divination (mastery 1.30)
Sense (generic) 4/5
Identify (generic) 3/5
Vision (generic) 2/5
Telepathy (generic) 0/5
- Spell / Phantasm (mastery 1.30)
Illuminate (class) 0/5
Blur Sight (class) 0/5
Phantasmal Shield (class) 0/5
Invisibility (class) 0/5

[Current Effects]

- Arcane Power
- Hymn of Detection
- Probability Travel
- Stone Skin
- Chant of Fortress

[Active Quests]

-- The many Prides of the Orcs
Investigate the bastions of the Pride.
* You have destroyed Rak'shor.
* You have destroyed Vor.
* You have destroyed Grushnak.
* You have destroyed Gorbat.

* All prides lie in ruins, their masters destroyed. High Sun Paladin Aeryn would surely be glad of the news!
-- Into the darkness
It is time to explore some new places dark, forgotten and dangerous ones.
The Old Forest is just south-west of the town of Bree.
The Maze is west of Bree.
The Sandworm Lair is to the far west of Bree, near the sea.
Carn D?»m is to the north of Amon S?»l.
* You have explored the Old Forest and vanquished the Old Man Willow.
* You must explore the Maze and find out what lurks there and what treasures are to be gained!
* You have explored the Sandworm Lair and vanquished their Queen.
* You have explored Carn D?»m and vanquished the Dragon.
--

Fela
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#3 Post by Fela »

100% agreement, you need both targeted teleports to pull this off. Even if you somehow managed to block every aimed attack (which in itself is impossible), eventually an inferno will be dropped.

I'm currently leveling a SB to see if it's even possible solving this in melee, stun resistance might be a problem, though. And finding a usable spot ;)
Also the fact that the SB's target area for teleport/PD is larger than the archmage's might pose another problem.

darkgod
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#4 Post by darkgod »

I did try making the portals further ahead but this just meant the imp got to snipe from far away and killed either limmir or you without any time to react.
Putting hem close was actually an act of mercy on my part ;)

But you are still right of course :)
Please draw the map you imagined and lets talk :)
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Fela
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#5 Post by Fela »

The only way i could see this work for pure fighter types is if the action took place in a small temple featuring a bottleneck entrance with missile cover.

Code: Select all

|  ######
| ##    #
|# d# L&#
| ##    #
|  ######

Pillar between Limmir and the entrance for area attack protection. (d would be the ideal defensive position)

darkgod
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#6 Post by darkgod »

But then I would need to make demons pop MUCH faster to try to swarm the player, and only oe grid to enter is not good it makes it too easy to not be overwhelmed
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Fela
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#7 Post by Fela »

Well, if the goal is just to overwhelm, there's no real need to fix it, goal accomplished by making the area noteleport :).

An alternative solution could be to abolish the 'protect Limmit' idea. I can see no option to pull this off unless noone can really reach him, because a single inferno is enough.


Something that would work:
'Oops, it seems i activated the Moonstone. It apparently generated a forcefield to protect me, but that won't help you much. Seeing as there are all those demonic portals it might be a good idea to move your ass, i'm sure hell will break lose soon' (a.k.a. 'Run Forrest, RUN!')

Then time prison Limmit for the time of the event and swarm the player instead. Maybe give him a head start or start with quasits :)
The goal would then be to survive until the event is finished, at which point all demons that are still alive will be banished. Or to kill the big bad head demon which i gathered will appear anyway - but that also means to make this survivable he'd have to be the final demon summoned.

darkgod
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#8 Post by darkgod »

Well the goal is that it has to be hard but doable ;)
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

edge2054
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#9 Post by edge2054 »

Maybe he could be granted a protective shield that isn't invulnerability.

Basically have the alter give him a bunch of extra hp so he can't be one shot along with some damage resistances (resists only while the shield holds).

Add some LOS breaks to the map but not to the extent pictured above..

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#T#......&...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~......TT....###
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#####.........~~~~~~~~~~"""~~~~~~~~~~.&....TT...##
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####......T....~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.......T###
####T..........~~~~&~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~........T###
Finally instead of making it no teleport make it so teleportation removes his shield and forces him to restart the ritual. In other words, he paths back to the alter.

Patryn
Thalore
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:07 pm

Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#10 Post by Patryn »

I thought more of something like this:

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###.TT...~~~~~~~~~~~~"""MMM""~~~~~.~~.......TT####
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#####################........#####################
##################################################
The demons spawn in the upper corner and head towards the moonstone (which is bigger here and gives Limmir some extra cover). As a player you have several options to intercept the demons in the various bottlenecks (though you cant completely seal the entrance as they come from different positions/passages). Or you defend on the island, being more exposed but able to exploit the light-AoE of the moonstone (IIRC Limmir casts that one here, not the moonstone itself).
Speaking of Limmir: He will stand at the "." grid next to the moonstone and thus out of LoS.

Two changes may be necessary in this scenario:
1. More demons should spawn, since things get easier if you can use the terrain to your benefit. IMHO the best case yould be if at some point it gets very intense and the player gets pushed back and *has* to use the lightbursts (unless the player is overpowered or finds a creative and effective tectic ;)).

2. The event should take something like 50 turns longer, since they have to travel quite a bit. The demons can keep spawning until the event is done, but under these circumstances the Balrog should then spawn 75-100 turns before completion instead of about 50 turns.

PS: The whole edited lua file is attached (including coords for the portals).

PPS: I like the suggestion of porting Limmir away to reset the counter because Limmir has to walk back to his position and restart the rite of cleansing.
Attachments
valley-moon-v2.rar
(1.29 KiB) Downloaded 267 times

darkgod
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#11 Post by darkgod »

Done!
Using patryn's map, increased counter and increased spawn frequency
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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Fela
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#12 Post by Fela »

This is all very nice and I like Patryn's version better.

Yet IMO it is still impossible to beat with a pure melee char without at least some kind of taunt.

darkgod
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#13 Post by darkgod »

NPCs reset their target every so often (about 10 turns), so if you stay in their visual range they'll come for you
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
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[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Patryn
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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#14 Post by Patryn »

Yay, great!

PS: The thing with the target reset after ~10 turns explains why the demons ignored me and just walked/charged towards Limmir (which made it necessary to PD him somewhere safe). Good to know... :)

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Re: Feedback on the Ithilthum-Quest (heavy spoiler)

#15 Post by Final Master »

I have a few issues with this quest now that I've done it and failed.

1) It has been said that the spawn rate was too low. I agree. I'm glad this is fixed.

2) I didn't know I could phase him away from the alters... I really thought he had to be on the isle. If I would have done that, I would have certainty completed it with ease.

3) The damn balrog. See invisible 20 and I never did see the bastard. Making him invisible is good and all. There should be more invisible enemies, but *invisible* is another thing entirely. Literally 13 turns left when he whipped the jewler to death.

Other than that, I liked the actual quest.

The way there though, level of the enemies in the caverns is good, type is super dangerous, but yes, more I think is needed.
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