ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:49 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:18 am
Posts: 29
The class being locked out of many amazing artifacts already hurts. Antimagic shield is my biggest issue. End game i had 97 phys power and if i max AM shield it blocks 112 damage. Elandar hit me for over 500 arcane damage even with my shield that high. I think it should be percent based(you can decide ho it scales capping at 60% maybe?). Manaclash compared to rune of dissipation is also weak as hell. And please put somethign on spellhunt saying it scales with mindpower, and let ppl know what it REALLY DOES in the description. Never once did i see it remove all sustains. I was told it removes two sustains and has a chance to remove more. And whats the negative thing it applies to them? someone said it applies some spell debuff on them but the gloves dont say what it is. I have no idea what the gloves even do as i kinda expected to use them on the final bosses and see many sustains disappear... even on other monsters i was using them to see what it would remove. I read that it can remove displacement shield and sometimes it did and others it didnt.


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 Post subject: Re: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:17 am 
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Higher

Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:23 pm
Posts: 47
Given that antimagic is almost always a tacked on benefit to an existing class (Oozemancer the exception and that’s already a very sturdy class), having it be more powerful would be very difficult to balance as so many classes use it.

Flat reduction is never going to replace resists on major late-game attacks. Antimagic also provides some of those resists, but it’s far from reliable.

Missing out on arcane stuff is annoying, though, and it’s a question of whether there are some important randart powered by arcane affixes that could be moved to other types to soften the blow of losing arcane gear, but it’s usually a worthwhile trade off as is.


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 Post subject: Re: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:59 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:53 pm
Posts: 138
Antimagic shield, being a flat reduction, is specifically strong against repeated smaller damage type attacks. Fearscape ground, corruptor diseases, oozepoison, most sources of burn damage, etc. 115 flat resistance is pretty darn massive, to be honest. You're looking for anti-spike damage in an anti-attrition ability. That's what things like resistances are for, as SDY said. Good thing we get Resolve for that, yeah?

As for spellhunts, you can read exactly what they do in the code. An extremely cursory glance shows that it damages undead/constructs directly, applies a portent (50%, applied with mindpower) 10 turn spell disruption effect, and strips all(?) spell sustains and spell effects. I might be reading it wrong, I just glanced through. Pretty nasty all around, and that spell disruption is outright crippling if I'm seeing it right.

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 Post subject: Re: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:27 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 6069
You are reading that code correctly. (And that dispel loop could be more efficient...)

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 Post subject: Re: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:30 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:07 am
Posts: 164
The tree is fine as what it is now. Resolve and Antimagic are potent defense against spell / DOT, Manaclash is weaker than Rune of Dissipation but does not require you to spend an infusion slot for it. So I am pretty happy with the state Antimagic is in now relative to the absolute trash it had been before 1.5

With that being said I think antimagic prodigies need to be redesigned. Tricky defense is an overkill for DOT protection while Spell Feedback is worthless to player but enormously annoying when used by enemies. I have a few ideas in mind:

Antimagic Expedient
- For the greater cause of vanquishing magic, you decides to use magic against magic. You use your great mental force to overcome the limitation of being barred from using magic, and you can now equip arcane-powered items and use runes. If this is not enough to warrant a prodigy point then also add an ability to steal a magical beneficial effect to you from an enemy

Spell Feedback update
- You can transfer x magical detrimental effect to your enemy, and deals x manaburn damage per detrimental effect. This bypass spell saves


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 Post subject: Re: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:36 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 339
antimagic is fine as-is, especially with the free 4 magic sustain removal on mana clash that doesn't cost an inscription slot or check saves

also, antimagic shield is a LOT stronger than you make it out to be, but it requires a way to get rid of equilibrium beyond resolve, such as fungus or an hat of absorption, to be good
heres an example of how strong it is:
at 5/5 with 100 physpower and 1.0 mastery, antimagic shield should be blocking up to 101 damage per damage value
if you have 70% cold resistance and an orc cryomancer with no respen crits with freeze for 600 damage, then you'll ultimately take only 109 damage
without antimagic shield, you would've taken 210 damage instead; nearly twice as much damage!

a greater strength of antimagic shield, however, is its ability to be combined with other means of passive damage reduction
automated cloak tesselation, forge shield, dismissal, striking stance, furnace, indiscernable anatomy(plus crit shrug gear and some dex), psionic/absorption

eventually, when you combine high resistances with antimagic shield, damage dealt must be this high in order to even touch you, and if you add tricky defenses, then that threshold gets even higher, and if you add one of those abilities i mentioned, then that gets even higher, and so, it eventually gets high enough that, when you combine high armor(and hardiness) with antimagic shield and high resistances, only big hits will threaten you, and if you manage to get 100% crit shrug, then there won't be nearly as many big hits out there


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 Post subject: Re: Antimagic buffs
PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:29 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:39 pm
Posts: 40
The gearing problem falls of as difficulty increases. It's more of an issue on lower difficulties.


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